I don't want to hear any shit about me shilling for Biden, because I'm not. Fuck Biden. Need to get this off my chest though.
I want fascists around the world to feel what we felt the night Corbyn lost, when we found out Bernie had a heart attack, when he conceded defeat like a coward.
Because they haven't felt anything but power and hate for the past 5 years.
The wave of fascist parties taking hold in Europe and parts of South America were buoyed by what happened on our stolen land. We showed them what was possible and we need to do that again, except in an explicit rejection of rightwing fascism.
I want Trump to be buried alive (electorally) so we can take (online) pilgrimages to piss on his (campaign's) grave.
I want Biden to be on full display 24/7 so that the entire world realizes what a joke neoliberalism is and we can finally destroy it.
I want to build real power and bully libs and tell them that we don't have to take their shit because "The dang cheeto" is no longer in the White House and we're not fucking around, and all of the harm that is happening to people around the world is because their guy is a failure.
I feel at this point leftist orgs need to own up to their anti-fascist claims and do the bare minimum of calling for Trumps removal, even if they also denounce Biden in the process.
Anyways. Have a nice night, comrades. Stay safe and stay hydrated.
QUICK EDIT: I also wanna see the left organize an anti-war movement rivaling the leadup to Iraq under a Democratic president the minute Sleepy Joe tries to pull some shit. That would fucking slap.
Misinterpreted and I'm dead tired but this was just an example, not "wishing genocide" or some other weird shit.
ANOTHER EDIT: People seem to be implying that I am saying "vote for Biden".. I'm not, I am expressing my own views and feelings on the current state of hell, though it should NOT be controversial to want to remove a literal fascist from office on a leftist internet community.
"I'm voting for Biden and I fully expect him to take us into an Iraq-level war again" is an extremely hot take
Edit:
How many anti-war protests have you seen under Trump btw? You think when Trump's out of office, libs will turn on him because he didn't end support for Saudi or something?
This is just too fucking weird. And when you say "tries to start some shit," you're talking about the deaths of thousands of innocent people who have no responsibility for American domestic politics.
Honestly just writing this response is getting me more pissed off. Fuck you you piece of shit.
I'm not voting for Biden explicitly because I think be will take us to an Iraq war type event again. It's arguably the biggest reason I'm unable to vote for Biden.
I struggle to see how anyone with the level of political education to really be a part of a community like this one couldn't see it this way. A vote for Biden is a continued endorsement of imperialism.
Bad call. Not a single thing hagensfohawk posted was out of line considering the frankly heinous shit that heqt1c is apparently ok with so long as the Cheeto is kicked out of the White House.
Saying "Wow! Didn't know that being anti-Trump is frowned upon here :/ " is bad faith
Upvoting you because you were getting downvoted and i love daddy beatnik uwu
Where'd I say that?
I said I wanted the same level of energy "the minute sleepy Joe tries to pull some shit", that could be as "minor" (relative term) as expansion of drone strikes, which Trump has already been doing (exceeding Obamas drone strike rate last year)
The left went to sleep under Obama, they drank his kool aid and people around the world paid the price.
I don't think anybody is drinking any of Biden's pool water here.
The left organizing antiwar protests under Biden would look like the left organizing antiwar protests under Obama. It would basically be 30 members of DC PSL.
That's 100% on us, DSA and other groups are 20x the size they were compared to under obama.
The DSA's politics are too incoherent. What's the DSA's take on Syria? What about sending antitank missiles to Ukraine?
The DSA is only as good as the people who participate in it are.
When's the last meeting you've attended (pre-covid even, to be fair).
But to answer your question, my chapter is more concerned with foreign policy in the western hemisphere and middle east
I'm not in DSA.
And Syria is in the middle east dumbass. And I'm not shocked that your chapter is is more concerned with western hemisphere plus middle east (which I'm sure is basically just a collection of issues: Iraq war, Palestine, maybe Yemen if we're lucky), since that is often where politics is most clear for socdems
Sorry I am just a little rattled that its a controversial take to be against a fascist on Chapo Chat.
https://gitlab.com/chapo-sandbox/production/-/blob/main/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, or other similar characteristic.
Please be kind and courteous to your fellow leftists. There’s no need to be mean or rude unless it's a chud.
Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal. Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.
We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior. In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.
This is totally a bad faith response, you can't post this shit and expect anyone here to take anything further you post seriously.
Trump is horrible, but fuck, at least he is incompetent at imperialism when compared to past presidents. A vote for Biden is a vote for competent imperialism in exchange for a competent domestic leader.
How many anti-war protests have you seen under Trump btw? You think when Trump’s out of office, libs will turn on him because he didn’t end support for Saudi or something?
Three hour news cycles. Shit happens too fast under Trump.
This is just too fucking weird. And when you say “tries to start some shit,” you’re talking about the deaths of thousands of innocent people who have no responsibility for American domestic politics.
Trump increased drone strikes over Obama's previous record already... are those lives not worth anything?
Honestly just writing this response is getting me more pissed off. Fuck you you piece of shit.
Then Chill, I am just trying to have a reasonable discussion about removing a literal fascist from office, that shouldn't be controversial on a leftist internet form.
USAmerican "leftists" are so self-centered. It makes my head and heart hurt. Sometimes it sounds like it's "solidarity but only if it's comfortable".
Anyways, you're the one living in the US. You can interpret whatever is the best option domestically for you, I can't. It just seems like it goes against the global south, so… our interests seem to be in direct conflict.
Edit: leftist is in quotation marks because it's a vague term I don't really like . I don't know about your political ideology, so it's not meant to be shady so.
This time is going to be different. Please ignore all evidence of the contrary.
They're all like "Yes, I know the democrats have killed people. But that was brown people and most of them in other countries".
No idea how it's acceptable to say that they're any better just because now the republicans are keeping the US fascism at home. Muh Obama didn't say he hated leftoids, all he did was put Latines in concentration camps and bomb the Middle East. I can accept that.
The only logical conclusion is that they don't care that much about imperialism. Like lets be honest, right?
Yankee go home intensifies
More than frustrating, it's exhausting. When you're a leftist of the global south who interacts with USAmerican leftists you're supposed to think about "harm reduction" for their personal situation. It would be okay if that harm reduction ever had a neutral effect on us, but it doesn't. Like I said, our interests seem to always be directly opposed.
So it's a situation where you have to listen and respect (to people who don't do the same to you, beyond some few words) to not look like an insensitive asshole. Saying what they propose is ridiculous is the softest opinion I can give without coming off as an edgelord who doesn't care about USAmericans.
I think it also largely comes down to who you interact with. I work for a large company among a ton of liberals, and my immediate family are all liberals. Filthy filthy liberals. I also live in Southern California. Needless to say I don't interact with conservatives a ton. Especially of the midwestern fascist variety. And I can imagine vice versa for a lot of folks who live in different parts of the U.S.
But I think it's also fair to say that liberals are the ultimate enemy of the left because they serve as the barrier that keeps us as outsiders. I think Nancy Pelosi has done far more to hurt the poor than Donald Trump. And she, like many, know exactly what they're doing. So some people really do just see two pieces of shit, and plenty of room in the dumpster.
For context, I live in a very red area.
People with lifted trucks with iron crosses on them and stars and confederate flags multiple times on a daily basis.
I've had guns pulled on me while canvassing this year. I've lived in this area for over 10 years and there is zero question its 100x worse the past 2 years.
I can feel that. It's worse here too I'd say. Especially the last two years. Everyone's really feeling the squeeze. Pressure is high.
I truly hope that if Trump wins there is an immediate large push, including the liberals, to eject him from office however they may
I truly hope that if Trump wins there is an immediate large push, including the liberals, to eject him from office however they may
Unfortunately thats how you and I die, not by implementing socialism... but by acting as fodder for a bourgeoisie coup to install a liberal.
And that is precisely why I made this post.
What value is gained by me voting Green this year? Hawkins is at <1% already and I live in a solid red state.
I don't expect them to represent me
This isn't about the Dems it's about Trump, we can deal with that dumpster fire at the same time.
So it's Nov 4th, the Greens manage to get 3% of the vote. Trump won, but it was close so the Dems are talking about lawsuits.
What now?
Well like you said, you live in a red state so your vote made no difference either way. How was that supposed to counter what she said?
My intent for this post was more to get people thinking about the conditions after the election, not necessarily how to vote.
It was definitely construed that way because I was kind of heated when I made the post and it was poorly crafted, but that's kind of it.
I am arguing that the left will have an easier time winning and generally organizing under Biden than Trump, and it's easy to see why that can be seen as advocacy for voting for him (even though I put bold letters at the top and made an edit to clarify)
Having organized under both Bush and Obama, it honestly doesn't make a whit of difference who the president is. Obama sent thugs with guns after us in Occupy DC just the same as Bush did to our anti-war actions. The machine is designed to oppress us and it keeps on spinning regardless of who is operating it.
Let’s be materialist.
The Dems aren’t going to return to that platform within the foreseeable future. They’ll just keep running republican-lite, because fundamentally they don’t care about being in or out of power.
Social democracy hasn’t re-emerged anywhere in the west, and I’ll stake the future on it not re-emerging from the Democrats either.
They do have office, just not the presidency.
Also, parties can quite comfortably exist without being in power. Just check out Japan and Singapore. I’m sure there are others I’m not thinking of too.
The Dems have enough history and donors not to collapse. They’ve got entire states on lock and key.
The Dems have enough of a base. Look at all the blue states. They can exist like that comfortably enough.
They’re shit, but they’re also well practiced at being shit.
I'd say 65M is a healthy base for sure. Banking on the collapse of the Dem party based off an election loss where their fundraising is going to skyrocket is a very risky gamble.
I wonder, actually, if this is true. The anti-Trump, russiagate gravy train has the democrats and their sympathetic media absolutely rolling in lib worship and money. I'm skeptical that they'd actually want to trade that for having actual responsibilities they need to follow through on, unless the gravy train of winning somehow seriously outpaces that of losing, which I doubt.
I guess I just have so much less faith in the liberals suddenly developing critical thinking skills after the past four years have demonstrated that they're just as happy as chuds to immerse themselves in comforting fantasies to avoid facing the reality that the Democrats suck and America actually has deep systemic problems that aren't caused by Russia and Trump
No that gravy train will be in full force to elect another 20 something "security contractors" to the house in 2022 if Trump is still in office. Part of my logic behind posting this, but I didn't want to make a manifesto length post about it.
I didn't tell you how to vote, I told you how I felt. Appreciate some respect and solidarity on a leftist internet forum if you could be so kind as to afford that to me.
I didn’t tell you how to vote, I told you how I felt. Appreciate some respect and solidarity on a leftist internet forum
Better?
Longish reply, last 2 sentences are the key points though.
I just wish you would re-read our little thread here and realize that I am not asking people to vote a certain way, nor is any of what I am saying in bad faith (I am voting green, because like I said..... red state, surrounded by bloodthirsty fash)
I am just giving my perspective that I think it's less about the "lesser of two evils" and identifying who the "greater enemy" is at this point.
I am not saying you need to do this, but I am saving my flaming for Biden (outside of this forum) until after Nov 4. I intend to fully roast his ass on a daily basis if he wins.
What I am doing personally (again, not saying you or anybody else needs to do this) is pointing out just how dangerous a 2nd term of Trump will be after he has:
-
Declared "antifa" a terrorist organization
-
Ordered federal police and the pressured governors to activate national guard against our comrades.
If he loses, we have used our energy to combat fascism and any remnants will return to their latent state and we continue organizing against a tepid neoliberal state led by a sundowning 78 year old and a weakened fascist base.
If he wins, we'll already have led the groundwork for further radicalization.
EDIT: fuck I forgot.... Currently the neocons at the Lincoln Project are running all of the anti-Trump messaging. You think that is helping grow the socialist movement?
Not meaning to spam you, there's just a lot to reply to in this thread.
Biden already very publicly put a target on the backs of our anarchist comrades so do you really think he is going to let himself be seen as *retch* "soft on crime" by taking Antifa off the terrorist list? That's a done deal, we're all on borrowed time here. Never mind that Antifa isn't even an org, those distinctions have never mattered to people like him. The libs will cheer him on for purging "Russian influencers" or whatever the fuck. I mean we're over here quoting Lenin FFS, the table is already set to make a meal out of us, the only difference is who gets to thank the chef for such a fine dinner. The mayors cracking down on the protests right now are all Democrats. The fascism train is rolling and we're not even in the caboose.
Are you not willing to concede that having somebody in office that spouts off daily about "radical leftwing terror" or some shit, is worse for prospects than somebody who might just not have the balls to take a philosophy off a list?
Gotta be honest here, I'm still not sure enough about the material impact of Trump's words to make that sort of evaluation or comparison. I mean, obviously it's causing harm, I'm not denying that at all. But how much? How do you measure that so that you can make a comparison to say, "Okay, this thing over here is actually worse / better." The man is made out of pure hype and his own enemies do half of his promotion for him. It's hard to say.
I do know this much, whatever degree to which the Republicans expect the Democrats to crack down and make a show of acting tough, they will. I've got the scars to prove that.
The crux of my argument isnt that Biden would be good. I am asking you to consider the prospects of growing the left under Trump Term II.
The rapid shift to the right on the Dem side (among the base) is a direct result of him taunting them in reaction to left wing and popular uprising, would you not agree with that assessment? They were libs before, but not cozying up with Neocons.
-
Appreciate the honesty, I'd like some analysis on how voting Green in a red state actually contributes to the betterment of society when they're at <1% right now.
How does voting Democrat in a red state do that any more? Vote for whoever is closest to your beliefs, which is probably Green.
An important addition, in case it needs to be mentioned, is that a successful signal to the dems requires voting left (or perhaps not at all for president, definitely down-ballot and definitely not for Trump).
People said this in 2016 but where's the evidence that it worked? Where's the evidence that the Dems care or are even paying attention to this?
"her" meaning Clinton? Sure. But nevertheless the Greens put up their best numbers since 2000. The Democrats didn't seem to receive the intended message.
why do you nerds keep posting this in main go to electoralism or wherever the joe biden community is
I want Biden to be on full display 24/7 so that the entire world realizes what a joke neoliberalism is and we can finally destroy it.
This isn't going to happen. Everyone will love how the presidency got back to being "civil" and just go back to ignoring the failures of neoliberalism.
I saw this post like 5 minutes after I posted this, it's also upvoted and has the same sentiment. I'm not saying Biden is good here, read the damn post.
https://hexbear.net/post/18873
I read the damn post including the fucked up shit in your edit
I fucking despair for the american leftNobody has been able to convince me that having Trump in office for another 4 years fanning the flames of fascists who live all around me (literally 4 out and proud fascist families on my street) is better than a neoliberal clown from being able to continue the status quo.
Can you do that?
simply speaking, you're thinking somehow 2016 brought fascism down upon america, and that's not how it works
fascism arises as capitalism decays - it's caused by the deteriorating material conditions of the working class, and this time it was brought by the failure of neoliberalism, meaning people like biden are the direct cause of people like trump
as he won't do shit about the actual cause of fascism - those deteriorating material conditions, which will keep worsening - electing biden will be useless, even if you think about electoralism at all, as it will just open the way for the fascists to win again, either in the midterms or 2024
voting for someone else has the slight chance of bringing an alternative to light so that people can start seeing that the left can present an anti-establishment alternative that is better than the faux-alternative presented by the fash, so it's a far more rational choice, regardless of where you live
It's our job to fight fascism regardless of the outcome in 2020.
And I never said anything about myself voting or anybody here voting in my post. I am voting green myself.
Better stated here than in my OP, because honestly I was a little on edge after a convo with my recently lib -> fash convert relative when I made this post. Maybe a better idea of where I am coming from here.
https://hexbear.net/post/18919/comment/136252
It is our job to fight fascism, but here's the thing: this election stopped mattering on that front when the DNC kneecapped the democratic process to install a mass murdering rapist who contributed directly to the rise of the police state and is currently running an early 2000s Republican-style law and order campaign. That's your antifascism right there, says the ruling class. I'm not being pithy when I say that fascism has already won this election in one way or another, and our energy is best focused elsewhere.
Trump already is droning more people than Obama and closing relations with Latin America.
As someone already pointed out that Obama’s drone strikes were hundred times more than Bush.
If you're going to make this comparison, then it needs to be pointed out that operational armed drones weren't a thing for the entirety of Bush's two terms, unlike Obama.
Never mind the two whole ass invasions that Bush launched. Actually, wtf is this comparison?
With advancement in drone technology, it’s easier to cause more damage.
The law of diminishing returns kicks in tho. And the whole point of drones is to cause less damage, which is why they now have missiles with blades instead of an explosive.
So the same logic doesn't really work in that way.
And at this point I'm just nitpicking a minor point. Still, bizarre comparison.
One can know these things because they are public information. "Army generals" may have said whatever you say they said, but nevertheless we have a missile with blades instead of an explosive (anyone interested, Google "Hellfire R9X") and the only reason that it's known to the public is because it has been used. So I guess "Army generals" don't decide these things, or at least not the ones you're quoting.
I don't think Trump is going to show the same restraint in a second term than he did in the first. Why would he? His base wants war with Iran and China. He dropped that big ass bomb in Afghanistan just for the hell of it, MSNBC and CNN sang his praises when he shot missiles at Syria. Where's whatever you think is holding him back?
Ok, now I'll do a quick shill for Biden since you asked.
There are a number of factors which would indicate he would be better, just a few points:
-
When he entered the Senate he was against the Vietnam War.
-
Biden was actually way better on Foreign Policy than Obama during their time in office, which is fairly easy. He opposed the intervention in Libya, he opposed the surge in Afghanistan, he opposes the US being a proxy for Saudi Arabia, he backs a two-state solution (same as Obama).
-
He promised in July of last year to end the US forever wars
-
He was against the 1991 invasion of Iraq
-
He argued against the covert raid in Pakistan that killed Bin Laden
-
He specifically and repeatedly has railed against US Post-WWII foreign policy for a long time, and on the campaign trail.
-
He led an effort during the immediate aftermath of the Afghanistan War to build schools and rebuild parts of Afghanistan that were destroyed by the war.
A few sources (all of these points are backed up in these sources, and many others so you can verify):
https://theconversation.com/bidens-long-foreign-policy-record-signals-how-hell-reverse-trump-rebuild-old-alliances-and-lead-the-pandemic-response-143671
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/07/11/biden-promises-to-end-forever-wars-as-president/
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/biden-obama-foreign-policy-record-2020.html
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2008/sep/01/lindsey-graham/only-as-a-last-resort/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-says-he-got-into-politics-because-of-the-vietnam-war
bruh.. .washington examiner is a right wing rag jsyk.
and promises mean shit and some of that is literally wrong or extremely lfucking cherrypicked???
https://theintercept.com/2020/01/07/joe-biden-iraq-war-history/
Biden voted for the Iraq war resolution on October 11, 2002, three weeks after hearing from Tenet in the classified session.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/15/20849072/joe-biden-iraq-history-democrats-election-2020
“What’s the central reason that Congress approved the war? Key Democrats like Biden crossed over and made a deal with Bush,”
Due to Biden’s backing of Maliki, the US helped to broker a deal that would see him retain the premiership in December 2010 and lead Iraq, even though his party had technically come in second in the election.
Oh, this one is actually new to me. Fun! He's literally already responsible for a coup!
Washington Examiner published it because its unpopular among their readership to have opposed the Vietnam War.
And yes, he fucked up big time on the Iraq War initially, but did make some good decisions later on. (and earlier in his career)
Ah well. At least only hundreds of thousands Iraquis died because of that little fuck up! Whoopsie doodle!
What is your suggestion? How will that improve life for the most people?
??? Not vote for a war criminal who already has hundreds of thousands of people's lives of blood on their hands? Like you're asking me like it's an "own" when really all you have to do is not be complicit in it???
And then of course, join local orgs (as i have) to protest wars and imperialist actions (as i have). You literally aknowledged that voting doesn't matter so why do you are you looking for so many excuses to vote for a war criminal?
Like you’re asking me like it’s an “own” when really all you have to do is not be complicit in it???
Imagine thinking that something as inconsequential as not voting absolves your complicity.
imagine thinking voting for the man who put millions of black people in prison and got rid of their voting rights is "helping" more than actually doing prison abolition work
Okay so you're doing less than me but still telling me I'm not doing enough for no reason then???
Where did I tell you that you aren't doing enough? Calm down and go read again because I didn't.
your said not voting doesn't absolve my "complicity" in....not voting for a war criminal I guess. Do you stand by that? that voting for a war criminal makes you less complicit than not voting for one?
Just trying to figure out how doing more activist work than people who vote for war criminals makes me complicit in American imperialism.
If you're an American then you're complicit and not voting doesn't change that fact.
Whatever else you do is irrelevant to the narrow point about abstention that I've made.
he fucked up big time on the Iraq War initially, but
There is nothing that can come after "but" that excuses what comes in front of it, that's it, that's the whole show. Full stop. "Initially" is when it counted the most, when it was still possible to stop the slaughter. If a persistent commitment to preventing the deaths of innocent people isn't at the very fucking top of your list of priorities then you might want to check your head for brain worms. You've got something in there that is preventing you from seeing things with the clarity they require.
and thats correct.
But this post was kind of made to help people weigh the prospects of a Biden administration, and 66% of the country doesn't support invading another country - and Trump would most react to any catalyzing event the same way the Biden admin would with people like Pompeo in office, or possibly worse due to his nativist + "strongman" ego.. so the point is kind of moot.
I'm not saying he was all good, I was just asked directly:
What’s to say Biden will do it less when he is already saying Trump is soft on middle east?
So I answered.
-
If you think Trump has damaged the world or furthered the cause of american empire or "fascism" more than the years of Obama, Clinton, both Bush jr and sr, etc, then you just don't know what's going on.
I want Biden to be on full display 24/7 so that the entire world realizes what a joke neoliberalism is and we can finally destroy it.
To think any of this would happen would be just a flagrant disregard for the history of America as an empire.
I want fascists around the world to feel what we felt the night Corbyn lost, when we found out Bernie had a heart attack, when he conceded defeat like a coward.
Fascists aren't some kind of nega-leftist, a dark opposite force or some bullshit. It's an organic reaction to conditions from the system itself, so "fascists feeling" is just totally fucking irrelevant.
The wave of fascist parties taking hold in Europe and parts of South America were buoyed by what happened on our stolen land.
This is idealist bullshit. Idealist here (if you're not familiar with leftist lingo) roughly meaning "believing that it is caused by ideas," as opposed to a materialist analysis. Fascism isn't some idea floating around that gains traction from people looking around and going DAM COOL RACISTS ELSEWHERE CAN DO IT TOO! It's a mechanism within the system itself to save itself in a crisis. The reason for a fascist "wave" isn't because of whatever fucking happens in the fucking USA, it's because of a particular set of material conditions within these countries and globally. Trump doesn't affect that and neither does Biden. It's a wash on that front. You should look to what it says about people's material conditions rather than what it says about whatever myopia you have about domestic US political theater.
I say theater especially here because for everyone else in the world, the US empire does the same thing regardless, and Biden would be just as bad if not worse judging by history on that front.
Trump doesn’t affect that and neither does Biden. It’s a wash on that front.
Brains are material, and that aside, the superstructure is influenced by and influences the material.
The material conditions can promote fascism, but having them surge elsewhere also feeds into it. It allows fascism examples of what tactics and messaging works. American cultural hegemony means any shift in American culture also affects overseas.
If you’re familiar with the war of position, having Trump in the bully pulpit is a big win for fascism in that war. It also so happens that it harms liberals, which we like. It’s a Mexican stand off.
The extent to which Trump influences global fascism is infinitesimal compared with the extent to which it was affected by our last great financial crisis and the actions of US empire in the middle east. Both of these things would continue with minimal variation under a Biden presidency because both Biden (his party) and Trump (his party) share identical goals regarding either. Even if you could argue there is a difference, who knows which way that difference goes. What are the democratic imperial ambitions? What are their approaches to global finance?
All the war and finance will the same, yes.
The difference is mostly internal, being that the Trump variety likes to actively encourage it on twitter.
Dialectical materialism doesn’t mean individual actions don’t matter, even if the course of history proceeds according to material conditions. People still need to be agents.
In this case, one small way of reducing fascism’s rapid surge would be deplatforming Trump.
Definitely agree with agency still existing, but in this case the question is about the electoral system and predicting what these particular agents will do, and I think both of them have been constructed/selected by these same material conditions being discussed to have a negligibly different impact, maybe slightly worse on Biden's side because of how he'll wield the empire. The only sense in which Trump is worse is, like you say, his domestic cultural impact. The problem is I just don't see his impact there being terribly great when compared to the utter devastation someone like Biden with the entire apparatus behind him could do to the global south and elsewhere.
This is all true, but the bully pulpit factor is a real thing.
It becomes:
Let capitalism run its course and continue to organize without the daily bombardment of fascist propaganda coming from the WH, which in my opinion is preferable for building a movement.
or
Let capitalism run its course while a dang cheeto is spewing fascist propaganda from the WH.
Also to your point at the extent one figure can influence global fascism... there are some pretty clear examples of this happening in 20th century, and just 5 years ago. I think KiaKia and me are talking more about institutionalized (electoral form) fascism.. not necessarily social, or systemic fascism.
Those two choices are possibly too narrow though, because we don't know if Biden would wield the state more effectively than Trump.
It's conceivable that your choices listed can be modified to:
Let capitalism run its course and continue to organize without the daily bombardment of fascist propaganda coming from the WH, while we effectively and discreetly bring ruin and empire to the global south and elsewhere moreso than we had been with the current admin.
or
Let capitalism run its course while a dang cheeto is spewing fascist propaganda from the WH, with more or less the same if not slightly increased impact on the global south that Obama had.
Which parts of the global south?
I've researched people on Bidens FP team and they mostly seem "ok"... not good by any means, but they're pro-China, pro-Diplomacy, mostly neutral on Israel-Palestine, and one of them even got in an argument with Clinton over intervention in Venezuala.. A couple of them worked on the team that opened up relations with Cuba as well.
A decent amount of the top people in his team are CNAS ghouls, the same people who proposed starving the Syrians to death to pressure Assad. They're funded by the US arms industry iirc, and anything they personally say on their twitter accounts or whatever is probably less relevant than their individual histories jumping on board the Clinton ship initially and then jumping to Obama when she lost. You've also got guys at the very top like Blinken who of course needs no introduction given his History in the Obama admin. In fact, I think it was both Blinken and Sullivan (who are now there at the very top with Biden) who had with Clinton and under Obama an "iron hearted" or whatever the term they used was commitment to Israel. Whenever they mention their support for Palestine it's of course totally toothless and irrelevant. Their real intentions are laid bare by their continued (even to this day!) insistence that "military aid" to Israel be utterly non-negotiable, which effectively means you're starting your position announcing you have no leverage with Israel, which you'd only do if you in fact wanted to communicate to Israel do whatever you want.
As for specific places this would fuck up, it's hard to say because these people all say things on the campaign trail that are at odds with their histories in office (mostly under Obama or advising Clinton who then went into office under Obama). Judging by that history though, China's a real target here. The Dem apparatus made that clear with Clinton's "Pacific Century" unveiling under Obama. You can bet all of those same people that workshopped that are still around. You can also expect a lot of these people have their eyes on Russia, not the global south but nonetheless an imperial target. And you can bet these people have similar feelings that they did under Obama to Haiti, most of Africa, the entire middle east, and a lot of South America. I mean for god sakes Blinken was the guy who went with Nouri El-Maliki up till Isis (could be remembering that wrong too but I'm pretty sure that's true!!!). The only good play i can think of that's firmly in the Biden camp advising is the guy who spearheaded the Iran draft. Don't remember his name,
Good points, there certainly is a lot to be wary of RE: Syria, and that's a huge quagmire right there.. On that subject it's worth noting that Trump is largely maintaining the status quo laid out by Obama on that front, new rounds of sanctions and various escalations up to and including this year.
On China, I think the relationship would be better purely out of the interest of international capital, so potentially a soft win compared to right now? Who knows at this point.
Here are a couple of "pro-Biden" points I wanted to post with regards to foreign policy and the reasons I am pretty confident he wouldn't be worse (subjective) than Trump on various things, I dropped them elsewhere in the thread. Mostly just past positions, like you said, Campaign rhetoric etc. etc... it goes both ways though, some of the hawkish stuff doesn't match his record necessarily (specifically regarding South America).
-
When he entered the Senate he was against the Vietnam War.
-
Biden was actually way better on Foreign Policy than Obama during their time in office, which is fairly easy. He opposed the intervention in Libya, he opposed the surge in Afghanistan, he opposes the US being a proxy for Saudi Arabia, he backs a two-state solution (same as Obama).
-
He promised in July of last year to end the US forever wars
-
He was against the 1991 invasion of Iraq
-
He argued against the covert raid in Pakistan that killed Bin Laden
-
He specifically and repeatedly has railed against US Post-WWII foreign policy for a long time, and on the campaign trail.
-
He led an effort during the immediate aftermath of the Afghanistan War to build schools and rebuild parts of Afghanistan that were destroyed by the war.
-
No offense, you're saying that the message isn't to vote Biden, but I don't really see what other implication we're supposed to draw from this?
I am posting my thoughts about the conditions which will exist on November 4th until whenever the next shift occurs.
Here's a more succinct take I made after being flamed for an hour or two that you might still disagree with, but goes into a little more detail in a tight space.
https://hexbear.net/post/18919/comment/136252
leftist internet community.
?
That's not what this is? This is libs only.
