Permanently Deleted

  • Obrus [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    They lock their doors, huh? Afraid you're going to bust in and start industrializing their house?

      • MagisterSinister [he/him,comrade/them]
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        4 years ago

        I don't want to be a party pooper here, but please only do this if their house is behind a mountain range or other natural obstacle against invading fascists.

        • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
          ·
          4 years ago

          "Hi, yes. I'm calling because I'm concerned. Your son was seen passing out Kalashnikovs to my weekly maid service.... Well, of course I respect the 2nd Amendment.... Alright, but I really don't want to get into the LTV right now.... No, I don't have a Winter Pala- I mean ski lodge... Well, that's very sweet that you want to throw me a party in February, but I think I've got to go now."

  • Steely_Gaige [none/use name]
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    4 years ago

    This is awesome, haha. But really, cats can be extremely bad for local ecosystems and food chains. It's just bringing in apex predators to neighborhoods and setting them free. A bell at a minimum.

        • ziper1221 [none/use name,comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          Yes. it seems bizarre that when the topic of outdoor housecats comes up, people talk about the handful of birds a year a cat kills like it has any relevance at all to the suburb that has already been devastated. The figure that is usually thrown around (~2 billion birds killed by cats a year) includes feral and stray cats, so really all it does is highlight the importance of spay and neutering.

          • Steely_Gaige [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I understand what you're getting at. Like, you think they should be spayed\neutered but allowed to be outside?

            I feel the need to point out, I'm not disagreeing, just trying to be sure about what you mean.

            • ziper1221 [none/use name,comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              Essentially, yes. A typical housecat isn't a good hunter, anyway, and I don't think animals are fit to live inside. Could you imagine never going outside? better to not have one in the first place.

                  • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    No, flat earther, I will not waste my time to Google shit for you when it is the first thing that will pop up when you search.

                    If you actually cared about correcting yourself and not just taking the opposing side you'd have looked it up already.

                    • ziper1221 [none/use name,comrade/them]
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                      4 years ago

                      We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually, and that un-owned cats cause the majority of this mortality.

                      un-owned cats cause the majority of this mortality.

                      • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                        4 years ago

                        Yes, feral cats.

                        Additionally, outdoor cats are just feral cats in function, except someone is sponsoring their invasive activities.

                            • ziper1221 [none/use name,comrade/them]
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                              4 years ago

                              eat shit and die. you are the one that made the initial claims, and failed to back them up. go fuck yourself.

                              http://www.ace-eco.org/vol8/iss2/art3/#killed

                              • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                                4 years ago

                                Sorry I missed that you're the same person from earlier when replying to inbox messages.

                                https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

                                Here we conduct a systematic review and quantitatively estimate mortality caused by cats in the United States. We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals.

                                Yes, if your argument is that feral cats do more damage than owned "outdoor cats" you are right. There are more feral cats.

                                But to point to feral cats as support for the argument that outdoor cats don't do that much damage is a simple whataboutism. People are pointing out that both are a problem, and deeply intertwined.

                                Outdoor cats make feral cats, they breed with feral cats, they become feral cats. And both hunt equally per-cat. The study is not saying that a feral cat individually kills more than an owned cat, it is saying most of the bird mortality is caused by the population of feral cats which is estimated to be between 60–160 million. Equal or more than the number of owned cats, of which many are not "outdoor cats" and actually have responsible owners.

                                An "outdoor cat" is estimated to kill about 2 birds per week on average, and that is far from your statement of "people talk about the handful of birds a year a cat kills" unless you have some massive hands.

                                • ziper1221 [none/use name,comrade/them]
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                                  4 years ago

                                  Outdoor cats make feral cats, they breed with feral cats, they become feral cats.

                                  Have you ever heard of anything called neutering?

                                  And no, both do not "hunt equally per-cat". did you read the study I liked, or even your own?

                                  • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                                    4 years ago

                                    TNR does not work and that is supported by almost every scientist in the field.

                                    Neutering your "outdoor cat" is certainly better than not doing so. But it ignores how outdoor cats still kill hundreds of birds, small lizards, insects, rodents, etc. every year.

                                    In no way can you argue outdoor cats is a net benefit. It's ridiculous to take that position beyond a desire for contrarianism.

              • Reversi [none/use name]
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                4 years ago

                better to not have one in the first place.

                That's 90% of pets

                • Prinz1989 [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  Pets are good for human health and can have educational uses as well. Thats more importent than some birds. The decrease in bird population is much more related to insecticides and the suburbs usually kill or drive out all natural predators who would also kill birds.

                  • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    just because something is good for human health doesn't give humans the right to destroy the ecosystem. companion animals are fine but it's your responsibility to make sure they're not harming the ecosystem you share with billions of other lives.

                  • HKBFG [he/him]
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                    4 years ago

                    Keep your cat inside you fucking liberal.

              • CommieElon [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                We put our cat out on a leash and let him do his thing in the yard. Cats absolutely kill wild birds.

              • Steely_Gaige [none/use name]
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                4 years ago

                Yeah, I agree with that. I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on the exact effect it has on the environment or anything, but definitely spay and neuter. Every animal I've had has come from the pound, spayed neutered, etc.

          • HKBFG [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            The human can be better for the ecosystem by keeping the cat inside.

          • modsarefascist [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            cus it's not about the enviroment, it's just people who hate cats. these same people were saying it should be okay to kill your neighbors cat cus it walked in your yard. now they're spreading the entirely unscientific idea that cats are some massive bird killer, even though every actual study done with peer review has shown they're not a problem (other than on islands or aus/nz, different ecosystem there)

            • HKBFG [he/him]
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              4 years ago

              Science isn't a conspiracy to denigrate cats.

      • lvysaur [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        Yeah, why try to remove cats when you could remove chuds? Chuds contribute at least 1000x more CO2/methane/etc

      • Steely_Gaige [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        I never trapped one or anything. Probably a smarter idea. There are just so many feral cats where I live, it's awful. Then my mean ass pound puppy pitbull kills em. Which, I feel bad about, but it's the outside? Like, how can I police that.

          • LeninWalksTheWorld [any]
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            4 years ago

            seriously I love my cats but ferals need to be straight up hunted down like it's 18th century England so they don't destroy every other animal in a 5 mile radius.

            • Nagarjuna [he/him]
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              4 years ago

              I know someone who bought a raccoon trap just to bring ferals to the feral cat spay and neuter and honestly god bless em.

              • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                4 years ago

                Spay and neuter is useless. Unless you then keep them indoors you've done almost nothing a released them back to destroy the environment.

                If you trap a feral cat, kill it. Invasive cancer to the outdoors.

                • Nagarjuna [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  Spaying prevents 6 cats, killing prevents 7. It's okay dude.

                  • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    Killing eliminates the thousands of colonies of TNR ferals across the country. Killing versus TNR is the difference between the amount of feral cats being the same as domesticated cats in this country (current) and no feral cats. Take note from other countries like Australia that do their best to kill them, not sustain them.

            • eiknat [comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              at this point it's better to TNR, not cull. with TNR you can control population growth and they keep unfixed cats out of your area. when you cull, new cats constantly move in because other places don't TNR.

              I also provide biodegradable toys for my ferals so they have something to play with that's not a living creature. it helps some, but they do still hunt.

              • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                4 years ago

                This is wrong. Every actual scientist on the issue agrees TNR does not work. Cats hunt for enrichment regardless of being fed and you're letting them continue their full lives hunting birds and other small animals. While people release more cats.

                • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  my evidence is obviously anecdotal, but since I started TNR a few years ago, the amount of cats that come to my feeding station has gone down as kittens are removed and given homes. i don't see as many adults walking around.

                  it does seem to work for my area and it's what all of the groups in the area recommend. idk there's no way I'm killing a cat who didn't ask to be born in this situation.

                  • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    Anecdotal evidence holds no weight over actual science. These cats are invasive and if you care about saving the environment and all the other animals who didn't ask to be killed by this virus of an animal we introduced you wouldn't feed them and allow them to live out the rest of their lives continuing to kill any small being they can capture just for fun.

                    https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Castillo-and-Clarke-2003-TNR-ineffective-in-controlling-cat-colonies.pdf

                    • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                      4 years ago

                      link to something that isn't 17 years old at least.

                      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704110/

                        • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                          4 years ago

                          so what, is geocentric theory still valid? science can form the wrong conclusions from the data present at the time. please read the one i linked that is much more recent. it includes this note:

                          "Nevertheless, it has been suggested that an “information vacuum” exists relative to the innumerable TNR programs carried out across the U.S. over the past 25 years [7] (p. 1). Because robust data from these programs have been scarce, determinations about program impacts have typically been based on anecdotal evidence [7,18,24]."

                          if they're saying that when this was published in 2017, what does that say about the 2003 one?

                          also btw, i'm not downvoting you.

                          • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                            4 years ago

                            You're here flaunting science and logic then go and say something as stupid as "is geocentric theory still valid"?

                            These two studies support each other. That's why, the 2003 one is not disproven by later studies. There is nothing wrong with having linked that one.

                            • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                              4 years ago

                              it was a joke.

                              the study i linked supports community cat management strategies like TNR, a local cat shelter (no questions asked surrenders = less cats being dumped), and adoption of sociable cats. it does not say TNR is ineffective.

                        • mine [she/her,comrade/them]
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                          4 years ago

                          it varies from field to field, but in general around the 10 year mark is when the probability that a specific study is likely to be disproven becomes greater than the probability that it's results will hold. in some fields that have lots of attention/researchers or rapidly changing methods/tech, it's much shorter (look at how quickly the scientific evidence on mask effectiveness with airborne virus transmission turned over during corona). scientific shelf-life is real and one of the reasons why consensus among many studies is considered better evidence than individual studies.

                          • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                            4 years ago

                            I suppose that's fair and more up to date studies are preferred, but to be massively downvoted for linking a study from 2003 feels very strange. That's not a very old study and everything in it is maintained today.

          • Reversi [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            I like rodent populations in metropolitan/urban areas under control, thanks

          • eiknat [comrade/them]
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            4 years ago

            cats can be outside if they're under supervision. it's recommended for behavioral issues. most of mine have no interest, but there's one naughty boy who has a harness and leash for some supervised outdoor playtime. 😁

            • HadMatter [none/use name]
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              4 years ago

              Yea, we bring our cat out whenever we're out on a leash and harness. It makes him much more tolerable, and we watch him to make sure he doesn't fuck with shit that shouldn't be fucked with.

            • CommieElon [he/him]
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              4 years ago

              Their behavior changes. I work in a fragile ecosystem that has a population of feral cats. They don’t respond to humans how strays do. I haven’t see any but apparently they’re vicious and avoid people at all costs.

              • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                eh. from experience it depends. my ferals have a range of reactions. I have one I can pick up and handle. if I had room inside I'd let him indoors, but gaining his trust was pretty lengthy.

                one who had kittens (they live with me now, except one we found a home for) was super wary of us and now she screams for food when we come outside. can't touch her, but she's comfortable in our presence. both of those two pretty much live on my porch and allow my dogs to sniff them.

                I've never seen an aggressive feral cat in the two years I've worked with ferals. scared, yes. but they will choose to run away before attack.

              • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                4 years ago

                I don't think that's accurately described as a biology change, usually that would indicate some morphological difference. Behavioral changes in any feral animal are of course expected.

                Thank you though!

                • CertifiedFreak [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  I was imagining killer feral cats with spikes sticking out of their spine or something

              • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                4 years ago

                Did not know this, I'll look more into that. Is there a term I can search for? "Bigger feral cats" isn't the best track to go down for good results. Thanks

              • eiknat [comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                tomcats have some major changes that occur after the typical time a male cat is neutered (they're considered fully grown around 3y/o). their head and neck in particular becomes very thick and they're usually just larger in general because of testosterone.

                kittens are typically spayed/neutered anywhere between eight weeks and five months old, well before they have the opportunity to become fully grown.

        • MaoTheLawn [any, any]
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          4 years ago

          Doesn't it worry you that your pitbull has gotten a bit of a bloodlust? Who's to see he doesn't maul someone pet some day?

          • dayruiner [they/them]
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            4 years ago

            Eh prey drive (the desire to hunt and kill smaller animals) is different than intra animal aggression. All owners of large powerful dogs have a responsibility to train and manage them appropriately. I wouldn't worry.

              • dayruiner [they/them]
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                4 years ago

                That's true, but the scenario where a dog would go after a toy breed is called predatory drift. People are also much less likely to leave their toy breeds roaming around into other people's yards.

          • Steely_Gaige [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            Yeah, in some senses it worries me. My original comment may have misrepresented the dog a bit. She interacts with dogs and cats fairly regularly, without fighting. But when she and feral cats fight, it's pretty violent.

            I'm not sure if bloodlust would really be the correct word for it, but she certainly has a capacity for violence. Guess every animal does.

              • Nagarjuna [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                Then you know how neurotic they can be , and that folks go into it prepared for that.

                • MaoTheLawn [any, any]
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                  4 years ago

                  Well, yeah, but my rescue doesn't have the biteforce to do much harm. He's just a Lhasa, but even then, when he really had a go at my new dog I didn't want to leave them alone together.

      • Reversi [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        Holding onto someone's property due to that property killing wildlife that doesn't belong to you won't look good in a police complaint

      • eiknat [comrade/them]
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        4 years ago

        I TNR cats. I'd probably never know if I had trapped someone's pet. they'd get their cat waltzing back in with an ear tip and fresh surgery.

      • gayhobbes [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        I upvote you to beat back the flood of negative vibes

  • Loundzer [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    So many in this thread wanna kill the cat, like it has anything to do with it’s owners chud philosophy. If anyone fucked with my cat they’d end up in a box ⚰️

    • LangdonAlger [any]
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      4 years ago

      I only see one person who said kill the cat and they were very downbeared

          • CarlTheRedditor [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            I mean legally sure but that's certainly not how I primarily think about that relationship.

            • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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              4 years ago

              It's how this woman does.

              And beyond that, this being isn't "property" to you but is still your responsibility. If you release it to rampantly murder other living creatures it deserves to be taken away from you.

              • CarlTheRedditor [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                Nobody here is denying responsibility, but congrats on owning property I guess.

                • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  I'm shocked to see a militant vegan is fine with the slavery of pet ownership I guess

                    • gayhobbes [he/him]
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                      4 years ago

                      The person you replied to is a vegan who thinks I'm not a real leftist because I'm not a vegan, so I was shocked to see their take on pets

                  • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    There's a big difference between owning pets and acknowledging pet ownership is real.

                    Also you are a fucking liberal and you cry about it in other threads like a bitch.

      • Loundzer [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        You’re a fucking idiot if you think that the birds in question are theirs, and not just birds that show up in OPs backyard. If they’re OPs birds wtf are they doing loose in the backyard? You can’t control animals, but if you’re a human harming other people’s pets you deserve to get iced, stfu you stupid shit.

      • REallyN [she/her,they/them]
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        4 years ago

        It pisses me off to no end when talking to chuds who 1) have no idea how much leftists within capitalist states and leftist states were persecuted and attacked during the last century

        Was honestly thinking about this recently when someone on twitter was talking about how people in the US aren’t persecuted for their political opinions. Like even if we ignore the subtle ways people still are, this is only because the powers that be have so thoroughly crushed the left. The history of labour in this country during the 19th and early 20th century was basically just as brutal as the political repression in the USSR or Maoist China.

        We see this in Latin American countries as well, a military junta comes to power and tortured and slaughters anyone left of hitler and only then is “freedom and democracy” restored.

        People are just ignorant or delusion if they think capitalism/liberalism didn’t require just as much blood to entrench itself.

    • Reversi [none/use name]
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      4 years ago

      Eh, that works too. Cat might be birding in the yard 'cause it doesn't feel like it's getting its nutrients at home. If it just eats a shitton then birding becomes recreational rather than important

      Except if the cat gets sick for whatever reason you've got the "YOU POISONED DR. KITTERSON" thing to deal with

        • Reversi [none/use name]
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          4 years ago

          Could always tell the cat to read theory enough times that he joins the birds and rises up against his former owner

          Regrettably then OP would also be put in the kennel for being counterrevolutionary

    • Owl [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      As funny as this solution is, that's not going to be cat food. That's going to be rat or racoon food.