“Communists” crying over dead occupation soldiers and fascists, equating fascists to those who resist genocide
If you refuse conscription to the IDF they just put you in jail for a while, they don't fucking kill you
fucking clown shit
Yeah but once you serve your sentence they can just conscript you to serve again, which means it's back to jail.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the IDF incompetence is actually fragging
I would literally rather go to jail multiple times than agree to join the baby flamethrower duty squad
There are many who are: Sofia Orr, 18; Tamar Alon, 18; Tal Mitnick, 18; Tamar Ze’evi, 19; lots of kids choosing jail over genocide. We should definitely celebrate them.
Tal Mitnick has been serving consecutive 30 day sentences since December as far as I can find. Strangely, this topic isn't being covered much by media. Weird!
Makes me think of the legacy of Sophie Scholl. Those young people are being brave as hell.
Ultras be like: the haitians are killing proletariat slave owners 💔
"The Cubans killed a bunch of small business owners"
There's literally a guy in that thread defending wehrmacht conscripts I'm gonna die how are these people real
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Someone got banned for posting this image in the comment mocking them
I never even got to see the thread. Genuinely didn’t expect for 7DF to drop a bomb like that.
I can still feel bad that millions of Germans got killed. But you know who's fault that was? Themselves in aggregate and the nazis specifically. I'm not going to defend the average Fritz. Especially because they had all the fucking guns. Armies exist, in theory, to defend their people. The German army failed that task. They should have deposed the nazis and surrendered when their homeland was under invasion. The outcome of the war was settled it just hadnt ended yet. Instead they fought on, more innocents got killed for the egos of their genocidal masters. I can't defend that shit even on Opposite Day. Fuckin ultras.
Isn't that the same logic used to by Israel? "Why don't the Palestinians just come together and get rid of Hamas? The fact that they don't proves they are the same or support them."
Nazis are evil. It’s good when evil Nazis are overthrown.
Hamas is good. It’s good when they fight occupying Zionists.
You have to accept the Zionist narrative that Hamas is an evil fascist terrorist group to entertain that allegory. Since Hamas isn’t that, you are comparing apples to oranges
This logic literally applies to Israel; Hamas are right to fight; back before Israel flattened Gaza, if they went to the tallest building they'd be able to see where they used to live over the walls built around Gaza, or where their parents lived, which is now occupied by people from Europe and America.
Their homes are literally less than an hour away from their open air prison camp.
Only if you follow the Israeli logic of all Palestinians being armed and being Hamas, the point I was making was a failure of the Wehrmacht, not the civilians. Also Israel isn't fighting to force an unconditional surrender, they want to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
This is why nuance and context are important. Aggressors will always try to paint themselves as the victim when the actual victims defend themselves.
nooooooooooooooooooo you don't understand they'd have had to suffer material consequences for adhering to principles instead of being given a gold star and being told you're a good boy by the teacherAre they selfaware enough to also defend smol bean 3rd Reich being victim of unjust full scale invasion of ebil USSR Staltler imperialism and no, history didn't exist prior nor after 1945?
I don’t really understand ultras. They seem to see themselves as being the farthest left you can get while being the stereotypical armchair leftists that talk revolution and do nothing outside of that.
I always thought Ultra Lefts were a CIA job, since they only really exists on the internet to troll the Left (from the left), never ran into one in real life. Then I read an obituary of one...but then again it might just be the CIA being elaborate heh
Well, ultras go back much further than the CIA does. Lenin famously wrote about the phenomenon as an infantile disorder back in 1920. But that's not to say that the disorder hasn't been often used by the likes of the CIA and anticommunists in general as one of the many tools in their bag to smear and discredit actual Marxist-Leninists. There are plenty of genuine ultras out there but finding the line that differentiates them from psyops is usually a fool's errand. Honestly, I think there are some ultras whose hearts really are in the right place, they just crucially failed at the materialist part of dialectical materialism. The jackass in OP is not one of these.
My local org claim to be MLs, but are just stereotypical ultras who spend more time whinging about Big Bad China than they do actually doing any community outreach. 😭
I don’t really understand ultras. They seem to see themselves as being the farthest left you can get while being the stereotypical armchair leftists that talk revolution and do nothing outside of that.
These aren't as contradictory as you might think. They claim to be the "most left" because they want to deny the existence of actual leftist movements, because they want to remain in their comfortable armchair and protect their ego. They are leftists to feel good about themselves, not to actually improve things.
One of the most basic creeds of leftism is "capitalist imperialism and colonialism bad"
No don’t you understand? All countries are capitalist which means all countries are imperialist which means they are all exactly equal and there’s no stance we can ever take on anything because it’s all the same
A lot of trots have improved, but easily 30% will still argue this.
None of the people involved here are trots. You are being sectarian just to fit in.
Trots and ultras suffer from very similar disorders, both stemming from chauvinism and opportunism. These types of left coms are basically turbo-trots, if you took everything wrong with them and turned it up to 11 and added a very jaded and cynical aloof edge to it. Trots are often sincere and try to do things (too many things sometimes), whereas these types are terminally online and have flowed much further down the cynical pipeline and are justifying their own superiority complex and laziness
it's all entirely correct descriptions of trends in western leftoid thought
Yeah it's definitely not exclusive to them, but they're the only ones with any offline presence that I see this from locally. And again, not all of them, trots are interesting because they range from totally reasonable to complete cranks. But I guess you could say that of anyone.
I'm actually optimistic now that all sectarian labels are becoming less important even among those that would normally claim them for themselves. Locally I see lots of Trotsky-enjoyers who would have previously claimed the name and are now looking to build something broader than any specific label. Which is more or less where I am politically as well.
The working man has no country. From an orthodox marxist or left communist perspective it does actually make sense to say all countries are invalid and a pox on both their houses. They are, however, not doing that. They're condemning the individual casualties of the IDF while ignoring the mass murder of Palestinians.
The working man had the Soviets, and the loss of those nations has resulted in a massive global loss of worker rights and power. The labor movement has never been stronger than when the USSR was at its zenith, and it has never been weaker than after its destruction.
These ultras can yap all the twisted and contorted “theory” they like, but if at the end of the day their conclusion of the Cold War was “both sides are the same, neither should be supported” then they are just in flat denial of reality and their ideas are laughably naive. The USSR was better. Even if it doesn’t fit their ideal definition of socialism exactly it was better than the imperialist west, and their failure to agree to that makes them extremely suspect
The working man had the Soviets,
The working man has no country is from the communist manifesto. It is from a fairly basic section about how the communists/workers owes no allegiance to any particular country or nationality, but only to each other across the entire world.
It is from this principle that Lenin derived his thoughts about ww1.
During the time if the manifesto, there were no successful examples of socialism. After the establishment of the ussr, this changes. The strongest force of revolution becomes the Republic of the Soviets.
I have some news for you about the Soviet Union. Even if this had been a relevant commentary, there is no soviet union, no country of the working man
Which was written before the revolution… in which the working man gained a country
other socialist nations still exist, and it's our duty to oppose attacks against them by capitalist nations. In addition, it's our revolutionary defeatist duty to first and foremost oppose our own empire and nation. The "both sides" aloof and above it all position of ultras who flatten everything is fundamentally wrong. To espouse such a flattening of everything is nihilism and anti-communist and counter revolutionary. They don't sit above history, they reside within it. They don't sit in a nationless throne atop of the world, they live as workers in the imperial core.
Bruh what the fuck is that subreddit how do these people call themselves leftist
It constantly treads the line of being a parody, and it is good for my sanity to believe that they understand that.
I'm fairly sure that even the regulars in that sub have no idea what's real or not anymore lol
No they are not, they are actually like this
They are being insincere and ironic and aloof, they are shitposting. But they are all actual left anti-communists who think no revolution in history was actually socialist
I'm both confuzzled and amused.
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Ultras are the worst types of people. Full support when they get
in an actual revolution.They didn't even tried using any argument against reading Settlers, just went full nerd word salad lol.
Could be since it don't have much sense, but i seen ultras responding in similar manner many times so idk.
I saw a Family Guy reference in there and I just checked out. It's like tuning a radio to static, except for my eyes.
"The fact that I'm now having this exact same conversation again after the millionth person makes the same obvious and unanswered critique of my ideas should be a moment of existential angst for them."
"Ugh you shit yourself, you should wash up"
IVE BEEN DEALING WITH YOU PEOPLE FOR A LONG TIME
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One of the ultra left mods bans someone for questioning the insanity of these responses.
These ultra arguments aren't even just spinning weird contrarian academics, it's complete reality denial.
I think the most recent poll of Israelis put the 'approve of the actions in Gaza' combined with 'should go further' at 78%.
That's only going to be high in the IDF, even taking into account conscription, because a) the most opposed wouldn't serve so aren't wouldn't be part of the IDF sample and b) the majority of the IDF is not made up of freshly drafted 18 year old conscripts.
So maybe there's like 1 or 2 guys there at statistical most who aren't totally comfortable with the genocide but still not enough to dodge it or go to jail for a bit.
Why shouldn’t I spit on someone’s grave just because they’re conscripted? Who gives a shit? If you’re willing to commit atrocities because you were conscripted, literally just do it your team and officers. And regardless of conscription, most of them agree with the status quo and want it to go further with genocide. I don’t give a shit if you’re some broke hobo who got sent to war. If you have the same ideology, you being bitter because you got forced to do the dirty work doesn’t make anything different. All those “sad” videos of soldiers reflecting in Iraq or Vietnam or some shit, they’re just sad because they saw their team mates die or because they’re shot at. They couldn’t care less about the people they’ve killed.
And plus, it’s fucking Israel. Just gleams and go to New York or something. There are a bunch of zionists who don’t live in Israel and you’ll fit right in.
They really seem to ignore that said conscripts are more or less handed weapons by the oppressors committing genocide. And puts them in a good position to just take all the weapons they can and build an armed resistance with said weapons. They might have been forced into being there, but they could be finding others and merc-ing the genocidal and apartheid fucks. If the right-wing govs want to unintentionally arm the left and other people that know said govs are evil. Then it seems foolish to not exploit the fuck out of it. Even if the conscripts might have been initially not against their govs. The moment that they wake the fuck up, it is basically still supporting evil if they don't rebel. Shit is already a war, so the otherwise regular day to day things that might hold someone back are gone. You are either going to be killed for following orders and attacking the oppressed. Or you might get killed for fighting back. If being killed is likely anyway, then fucking at least be on the correct side of shit.
There's a reason Gramsci rotted in prison while Mussolini didn't even bother killing Bordiga.
From NATOpedia:
Bordiga was released in 1931 on the occasion of his niece’s marriage to a fascist. He also posed in a group of Blackshirts and the photograph was published in a fascist newspaper.
What a fucking snake.
That the only true proletarian revolution in human history was in 1917 and then after that it was immediately corrupted and no other revolution happened ever again. They like to say they are more Leninist than Lenin, but in reality they are more Trotskyist than Trotsky.
There is no urgency among them to take any type of action, form any type of organization, support any kind of cause, and in fact doing any of that is derided and mocked.
"Ultra" is a big blanket term that usually just means any alleged "communist" who explicitly rejects all successful socialist movements as failures for one reason or another. As a result, it can seem like they have completely incoherent and contradictory beliefs because there are a lot of types of ultra. Basically anyone who declares AES as invalid or revisionist is usually an ultra, and anyone who rejects materialism in favour of idealism. Pretty much anytime someone claims to be the "one true leftist" they're an ultra.
Some Trots are, but even traditionally sharply critical trots like Cliffites (who will call AES "State Capitalism") will at least pay lip service to critical support. In practice....they're often too far on the critical and too short on the support for that to hold
That said a lot of groups traditionally considered "ultra" like Councilcoms, Left-Maoists of the "Little Deng" type, even some An Syns have supported AES while also being sharply critical. It's Mostly Bordigists and Gonzalists and individual groups that have gone to the "Bad Crazy".
Trotsky himself was kinda all over the place with praxis from opportunist to ultra in different times, and various trot orgs are often doing the same. Not always, but often.
I think some would call them that, though it depends a little bit on the individual group. I would lump most trots in with ultras personally, as they tend to do all the usual ultra things like spending more time denouncing AES than working on overthrowing capital, and trots especially seem to more frequently abandon their ideals as they get older, becoming "how I left the left" sorts of conservatives.
I once saw a thread there (highly upvoted) claiming that communists should have done revolutionary defeatist in the soviet union during ww2. They are basically lapdog of fascism with a red coat. I have seen a high number of ultras being sympathetic to fascists.
Usually Bordigists, of the Italian Communist Party. It's a fork of Orthodox Marxism that accepts Lenin but denounces Marxism-Leninism.
This subreddit is leftcom whereas "ultra" gets used a bit more broadly, for example Chinese communists have used it to refer to their "the cultural revolution was good actually" side of the left.
No you see if you'd just let them kill several myriads more Ghazzan children they would've y'know achieved class consciousness and stuff somehow, and that would've made up for them killing myriads of Ghazzan children somehow
IDF killbots just need to reach their pre-set kill limits and they will
turn offachieve class consciousness - Ultrazapp Brannigan
The only relevant point to make is that these people have made no condemnation of the murder of Palestinian proletariat, they can claim "The workingman has no country" if they wish, but their banner is an Israeli flag and they care only for one side. I.e. they're just liberals. What's worse they're idealists doing flag fucking under the guise of communism.
I must stress that this assumes you buy into their proclaimed framework. From a personal perspective they're genocidal freaks and I hope they die.
An infantile disorder, indeed.
