I've had a few events so far where the discussion/feedback part had 1-2 white guys doing longgggg monologues about something unrelated to the main topic. Last time had some stoner guy ranting about the confusing service at airports here (the event was about Gaza). Before that it was some boomer guy trying to explain Madonna to the non-white teens in our group (the event was about trans rights). Sometimes it's just two white guys monologuing back and forth. It's super counter productive and cringe.
I'm just thinking of a hard rule. Like "if you're a white guy, you're welcome, but please try to listen more and keep unrelated monologues to a minimum."
For the record, I am a white dude.
I honestly don't know. Usually they're lib to left, but their politics always at least slightly problematic. Maybe they don't deserve my politeness.
No shit they don't deserve your politeness, they keep derailing discussions, that's problematic enough on its own.
there's nothing impolite about forcing these people to respect the time of others
A phrase I heard constantly growing up in Norway was "tidstyv". In English, according to Wiktionary, one can say "time thief" or "time burglar" or "time bandit", and yet I have never in my life heard someone say that, that I can remember. The phrase apparently originates in the 1973 Michael Ende novel Momo, in the original German it was Zeit-Dieb.
"time theft" is exactly it. when you take into account how many people are potentially being held captive these men are wasting collective hours of time that could be better spent doing literally anything else. from that perspective it's genuinely rude to everyone else not to shut them up.
Find that CIA/FBI operations manual on how to disrupt orgs by using infiltrators and turncoats.
Print out and highlight the parts that talk about the specific actions of, nitpicking on specific but insignificant details and what is essentially filibustering.
Pass them around.
They can be passive aggressive or aggressive aggressive about it.
If a person is doing a thing that is dodgy and nobody wants to directly confront them about it, maybe laying the groundwork for the offending person to do some self reflection will make it easier when somebody pushes back in a more direct manner.
Being an oxygen thief isn't a good idea either.
Its not fedjacketing to say that certain behaviours are counter productive and that feds do them on purpose. If you keep doing counter productive things despite being told they are counter productive you are as useful to the org as any fed.
But doing it passive-aggressively in response to someone doing something you don't like is.
If they're acting out of white privilege and being racist etc. they probably shouldn't be a member to begin with or if it's not something too serious they should get a warning.
If they're taking a position on an issue but doing it in a way that is objectively counter productive to the topic at hand it should be pointed out so that they get back on the relevant topic, this isn't a race thing it can apply generally. Issues like this also hint at a bad org structure which doesn't have clear procedures, each discussion should have some people democratically chosen to be "in charge" of the procedure and guide it while intervening whenever there is need to.
Never pass on your skill and experience to a new or less skillful worker.
Thank you comrade boomers in sabotaging western industry by not retiring, and thank you comrade porky for both refusing to train anyone and your insistence on perfection from anyone seeking a job.
If they're acting out of white privilege and being racist etc. they probably shouldn't be a member to begin with or if it's not something too serious they should get a warning.
The latter. The former wouldn't be tolerated at all.
This is why I, a white man, do not participate in any organizing and just grill goddammit.
You're welcome for my solidarity comrades.
Funny joke but consider:
thesis: I should organize and lead because the world needs a white savior
antithesis: I should grill because the world is tired of my kkkrakkka shit
synthesis: I should organize in a non-leadership role because the world is tired of my kkkrakkka shit
Ultimate synthesis: I should just grill for the org, since that's the only thing I'm competent enough to be trusted with, kkkrackkker or not.
The revolution will need people will all sorts of talent, grillers included
Did you just apply Fichte's method to white habitus
This is fuckin genius comrade
I should organize in a non-leadership role because the world is tired of my kkkrakkka shit
That suits me just fine tbh. I don't want the stress and responsibilities of leadership.
long off topic monologues
the sad thing is this is indistinguishable from something a wrecker or a cop would do, but I could also see it being completely sincere behavior. Perhaps institute some kind of time limit.
Isn't this literally the cia wrecker sabotage guide instructions?
On an organisational level this is a product of insufficient structure.
You can work on addressing matters of culture and individual attitudes but that's a long-game thing and it may not yield results or it may take a long time to yield results at all.
To address this on an organisational level, you want a chairperson and that chairperson to be an assertive moderator.
An agenda is also important as it will introduce and frame the topic for discussion, giving the chair an opportunity to pull people up if they're way off topic.
Establishing approximate timeframes for each item on the agenda is also important as it puts a degree of pressure on people to be succinct instead of treating the meeting as an opportunity to yap.
A chair will be able to use these timeframes to rein in people who are talking too much - if there is 15 minutes to discuss an item on the agenda and one person has taken up 5 minutes of airspace, the chair can move the discussion on to another person.
It's a tricky balance to try and strike and it depends on relationships and awareness and communication ability to navigate this stuff effectively and with sensitivity but as general advice if the chair has to continually drag one or two people back to the topic at hand as well as cutting them off because they're taking up all the time for discussion in meetings then there's a fair chance that these people will start developing an awareness of their behaviour and, if things go well, they'll start making improvements without any escalations or the need for other, more direct interventions.
Very true. I will try to implement this in the future.
I just read all this as stern words from the angry Lenin in your profile pic
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You need to figure out facilitation norms as an organization. Some kind of rule about relevancy, time limits, and an empowered facilitator. Frame interventions as a need to remain focused and to empower all voices. Don't initially present it as a criticism, but as the behavior continues be more critical. Alienate bloviating white boys before the alienate everyone else. OR they might learn a shred of self awareness—I've seen it happen before.
Don't you have any officers, old guards or just well respected members to explain this to them? They kind of just seem like yappers and if they don't stop after being asked politely then they need to be reprimanded and turned away if they fail to stop. If they're good faith comrades then a good faith discussion will stop it. If they aren't then you rooted out the problem that was sort of sabotaging your meetings anyway and they needed to go.
This isn't just white guy specific, though it will be more common. Some people just suck up all the air in a room. Having an effective moderator who can step in and politely cut people off/redirect the conversation on topic is a good idea. The following tips will be useful in moderating any kind of discussion, though I'll admit it's mainly geared towards groups of 15ish maximum.
(Fuck me, I was looking for a page discussing moderating small group discussions, but thanks to the enshittification of Google and SEO, all I can find is stupid advice for moderating focus groups from consultants. Thanks Google.)
Anyway, it's helpful to set norms and expectations early. I use the following system as an academic. I have people raise their hand to be put on a "primary" queue. This means they have a unique point or issue to raise. People raise a finger if they have an "immediate response" that's on topic regarding something the previous "primary" respondent said. You can just work your way down the queues, then, but you can set expectations about now long comments should be at the beginning. You can say "please keep your comments no longer than xyz minutes," and if people begin to go over you can politely remind them they've approached time. If they keep going instead of wrapping it up say something like, "in the interest of fairness and robust discussion I've gotta cut you off here to give comrades a chance to respond without also requiring too much time to address everything. Please keep the time limit and respect for your comrades in mind when answering."
If the discussion is moderated, you can then tweak the queue as needed to allow greater participation. If someone raises their hand a lot and no one else does, very well, but if you see that someone who hasn't spoken yet raises their hand you can easily say, "in order to hear from as many voices as possible we're going to go to ___________ next, and then we'll return to the usual queue." As long as you don't overuse or exploit this people generally appreciate and are amenable to the exception.
Yeah a lot of the other replies are good ideas, but having what we called a "strong chair" is the only systemic way to handle this. And you need to establish this as a norm over time, so the chair has support from the floor if needed.
Vanguard party. "We are straying off topic, let's let another conrade have a turn to speak thrn we will get back to that point later"
Can you get the white guys to talk with each other for a little while while the Adults in the Room™ get stuff done?
You joke, but I've actively tried to organise exactly this a few time already. It can be a quick fix.
...that was only a partial joke. Sometimes people are lonely and bored and just need to talk. They go to important meetings and talk there, interrupting the meeting. A good org I think would create social get-togethers as well so serious matters can then be discussed efficiently.
If they're old white guys, invite them fishing. If they're young white guys, invite them to a craft brewery. White people love craft breweries for some reason.
White people love craft breweries for some reason.
its true I do
I mean not as much as some people do, I've gotten more choosy as I get older but they're usually a fun atmosphere. I get a little weirded out when people bring their kids though.
I think some people just like to talk
And some people, cough cough me, sometimes ramble about things as a coping mechanism for feeling intensely socially awkward in a group
They're probably not maliciously attempting to exercise cracker privilege, but idk, i don't know them, but either way it's probably something that should be discussed with them
In my local org we have chaired meetings and a timer.
At the start we quickly decide which member will be the chair. Doesn't really matter who. If someone wants to say something, they have to raise their hand and the chair has to call on them before they can talk. Then they have 3 minutes to say their piece. The chair keeps track of the timer and also decides who speaks next, so if two people are dominating the discussion by going back and forth, the chair can choose to wait a moment to see if anybody who hasn't spoken yet wants to raise their hand. We do this for like 40 minutes and then go into informal discussion once it feels like we've run out of things to say.
At first I found this rigid and uncomfortable, but as soon as I attended a different org's meeting where they didn't have this policy, I wouldn't have it any other way. (Somebody talked about veganism for 45 minutes with long personal anecdotes, and everyone was too polite to tell him to shut up. And he wasn't even vegan.)
Be firm. Confront them, publicly if doing so is constructive. Learn to deprioritize civility and prioritize equity and progress. This just has to be met with strength. Procedural changes don't matter if they're the ones operating them or if nobody enforces them.
Scream SIT DOWN HONKY at the top of your lungs till he leaves.
I'll have 2!
