Sending good vibes to all of my trans comrades 
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otherkin discourse
Chat, am I old and out of touch? There was a struggle session in a chat I monitor about otherkins after one came in and said they have it worse than 'other trans people do'. I personally think this is probably bait by some reactionary, but lets assume they're earnest. They're not doing hrt, anything with gender, etc. they're basically just saying their presentation (re: wearing furry stuff / doing cosplay) makes them a 'new gender'. Am I wrong in thinking otherkins are just furries and cosplayers that take it way too seriously? Like if they want to do that stuff, sure whatever, but I don't like the conflation with trans issues.
I consider otherkin to be not a trans thing. People often hate on xenogenders (re: being 'new discourse'), I obviously consider xenogenders trans, most seem genderfluid and have a 'switch' due to an outside interaction.
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This seems like a pretty gross thing to say.
Yeah that bit makes me assume they were a reactionary
I mean, it could be a kid who doesn't have a lot of perspective/is very focused on themselves or something.
It definitely is a favorite reactionary bait though. I'm going to be very interested to see the responses you get.
I guess if someone TRULY wanted to be an animal they could make the argument that it’s a worse experience because there is less they can do with presentation and biologically
I suppose
I guess, but its not like there's any medical literature to support them "transitioning" to an animal and if it actually helps them or not. I think its just lumped in with depersonalization and body dysmorphia
Apparently the university of Amsterdam did a 6 year srudy on the subculture
whats it say?
I dont know, just that they did one. They have a pretty decent wiki that has a fairly comprehensive list of references. linky IDENTITY AND BELIEF An Analysis of the Otherkin Subculture
thanks, ill take a look at it later
I just found it through curiosity but it might be good?
You're welcome though
I would say that you should make a rule stating that while you may request emotional support in the group, please refrain from ranking/comparing your situation with others.
That's already a thing which really points to them trying to push buttons
Well you should warn and ban if it happens again, right?
I'm not in charge of this chat, its ran by some lib, I just help with resources
Ohh ok
I don't wanna wade into that but I do remember reading some paper ages ago about the incidence of being trans among the furry community (also bronies lol). Probably unsurprisingly, it's quite high compared to the non-furry population. The author thought that perhaps being trans is considered such a bad condition that it's easier to conceive of oneself as an animal rather than as a gender other than the one you were assigned, and that eggs were trying to sublimate their gender dysphoria as a "animal dysphoria" as a way to deal with it.
Anyway, I also knew a guy who thought he was an elf and wrote to his high school crush that she was also a secret elf and that he was prom-posing to her. I worked with him years later, he said he saw a satyr on the way to work. Caught up with him a couple years after that, he went on a long Christian missionary trip. Fascinating guy.
I have no issues with otherkin. I ain't asking people to rank their wounds or their traumas, no point in ranking or comparing. Someone with a lot of money or parental support, like Kim Petras say, has a different trans experience than say an unhoused black trans woman - even if they have a fuckload in common in the trans experience. But I know which one I would pick for myself the same anyway
I actually wanted to mention something similar to this angle but I forgot, like its some sort of trauma response. Generally it seems better to confront them / nudge them towards the idea that they need to do something about the gender dysphoria then, no? Assuming they have symptoms of course
But fundamentally I still think this assumes otherkin/furry stuff is not gender related, but can be a thing to sort of cover yourself with
I dunno, like people think furries are weird, but do they like, lose jobs, family, and stuff over it? I'm not super glued into furry discourse, just not my thing, so its an honest question
Uh they might if they started doing anything about it at work, or speaking about it ever? I guess most furries tend not to ever talk about it. To me it just feels like "on all levels except physical I am a wolf" is a further reach than going on /lgbt/ or something? The framing equivocating being a furry and being trans is probably wrong fwiw.
I'm not superglued either so I'm mostly just talking shit
Most of them are LGBT, so some probably already experienced those problems even without being furries. Like, idk if I know any allocishet furries. Also, many keep quiet about that kind of thing at work. I think some also keep the furry stuff secret from family but presumably are out about being gay.
Yeah I get that but its not a furry thing at that point specifically
I also don't tell my family I post on hexbear? Its like having a hobby right
I tell my family I post on the fediverse just like I mention most of my hobbies. Work, I wouldn't mention posting on here, but I would mention other hobbies.
But also, being a furry seems like its much more a part of their identity than like a casual hobby and would probably be more akin to transitioning. Adopting a new name, look, etc, including when meeting up with other furry friends (I've never been to a furcon, so only judging based on what I've heard from others). Some still use their birthname for those kinds of things, but for others their birthname might as well be a deadname in the context where they're comfortable being themselves.
Granted, many do hop from one fursona to another at some point or another, but gender fluid people exist too and many trans people go adopt new identities (like NB-> woman or woman->agender, etc).
There's a couple furry streamers I know who seem to be eggs and basically use being a furry as a way to express themselves (one seems to have internalized transphobia issues and the other seems to be agender and may just not realize that's an option or may think "trans" implies having a gender).
I used to believe I fit into groups more stigmatized than furries partly as a way of denying my gender issues. Wasn't an intentional thing, but the weird intersection of certain coping mechanism I had developed and being ace but not knowing it led to an awful explanation for both issues. I don't think the level of stigma matters that much when you learn coping mechanism before you seriously consider things like identity.
Also, the "I can't really do anything with this but hide it" make it easier to not critically examine it. Gender... There's a lot more to potentially do. And doing stuff can be scary.
Huh, I see
figures my read of a social aspect would be many thousands of miles off. Very neat, I see.
And yeah I did think last night, since other stuff tends to be things you hide by default maybe that helps, hmmmm. More to this than I had figured...
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I think the simple solution that sidesteps the entire are they trans debate is don't rank the difficulties of how bad people have it. even if someone personally thinks they have it worse, nothing good will ever come from saying that to other marginalized people
I mean there's a similarity regarding alienation with your body. The source is probably at least partially different. On the one hand, there are plenty of "cis" people who are OK being as such but ideally would trans it up. On the other hand, modern industrial society continues to be come increasingly estranged from the form of homo sapiens. For that latter hypothesis, ideally I'd like century old data on otherkin self-indentification, gender dysphoria, transgender self-identification, Kinsey reports for gender, and plurality rates... all of which I'm fairly certain do not exist.
Anyway, I get what they mean cause our technology sucks, but it's still insensitive, shouldn't be said, and is only going to put other people down.
otherkin, trans racial discourse
My thing is like, I feel like transness is supported biologically. You have a lot of different hormone receptors in your brain, a lot of chemical machinery going on in your DNA, a possibility of a wide range of intersex conditions... the full tapestry of transness simply makes sense (enby identities, non-med trans people, not cis people in general, all included of course!). Is there anything that could be said biologically for something like an otherkin? No... humans can't be part dog or whatever. You can empathize with dogs, you can feel like dogs are treated better than you so you maybe want to be one on some level?
I feel like this kinda taps on trans racial discourse a little too. Does increasing/decreasing your melanin medically actually make you feel better? Or is it they just empathize in an unhealthy way? Are they trying to improve their lot in some way? Have they internalized some sort of beauty standard?
Both are definitely something that needs to be studied at the least, to see if any sort of medical intervention helps or just harms. I know that a lot of surgeries and interventions relating to 'increasing whiteness' in Asia end up being highly regretted, at least.
discourse
What's the biological support for being agender? Is there biological support for humans being genderfluid, or demigender?
In other news I really think framing otherkin/therian as being 1:1 with being trans is wrong, probably. Going purely on what I know, I don't think most otherkin or therian people want to "transition to dog" generally.
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I feel like this is as supported as any other trans thing really. We know your brain can change over time, we know that hormone receptors can change over time, we know that people have mood and personality changes, we know that people seem to like certain balances of hormones in them, person to person. I feel that these identities are understudied, but I do truly believe there is a biological mechanism of some kind for them. I tend to give an example of a person coming in to our LGBT center mentioning they are xenogender with relation to sunny/cloudy days. They feel feminine on sunny days and masculine on cloudy ones (including dysphoria related to each). I suggested they try vitamin D pills to see if it alters their experience, and it did, it made them feel more feminine. I feel like there might be some nugget there to study.
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Right so, does being agender or genderfluid have something to do with hormone receptors? Is there a balance of hormones the same way humans needed a certain balance of the four humours, at which point you lose Gender?
So the answer's "no" then, I guess. Uh that probably seems kind of dickish on my part... I just feel like this "biological root for trans gender!" thing is very akin to the "gay gene" discussion topic, in that it's goofy and not worth considering and we probably do not understand the brain well enough to even begin to poke at potential "causes" of queerness if they exist. I think it's a really scuffed lens to view it through instead of just not using "scientific grounding" to differentiate one identity from another...
Fwiw this xenogender example you give feels like something brainfunny, since vitamin D is also used for depression treatment among other things. But I do not know if one anecdote makes biological cause.
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I mean, the thing is there are twin studies and theres a significant correlation for gender identity for binary trans people. The issue of course is they haven't ever done twin studies on other identities.
I think any sort of thing like this isnt just one gene, just like eye color is not one gene.
I feel like this is reductive, people have really well measured rates of satisfaction when at certain hormone levels, perhaps agender people simply have a different reaction to hormones altogether. I can say for myself that I know when my hormones are off with 100% certainty, I've been able to test it with my doctor. ( I had a phase where I really fucked with my hormones a lot to see how I responded and I would get blood tests each time )
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My instinct is that any sort of twin study like that for nonbinary or agender people would have deeply unfunny results. Either it gets used to cisnormatively box people into "UR [brain shape/hormone balance/etc] IS JUST [assigned gender or binary opposite of said]" type shit, or it completely destroys the idea of biological correlation to gender. Unless there really is a clear unique biological causation for every funny gender outside the binary.
Uh I don't think I disagree with that? 'More/right level of hormone you want = satisfaction' makes sense, but I do not see how this is evidence for biological support of any gender.
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At this point its more of an argument if you think hormones should be in the gender box or the sex box for making you feel better imo. I think it can be both, hormones can alter your perception of the world, your gender, other peoples view of your gender.
Oh yeah, its always nervewracking to have any study done on us cause we just wanna vibe and don't want to get shat on. You can describe it as a 'faith' or hypothesis thing I guess since I don't have hard evidence on paper, its more just I've noticed too many patterns after talking with thousands of disconnected trans people at this point that I feel like something must be going on. Pattern seeking ape brain? Perhaps
suffering
I don't subscribe to the gender unicorn model so I'm not sure how seperate the two are to me. It's like, I Changed My Sex This Past Year. I think the boxes are silly.
Well there might be something to those patterns, but if you wanna start framing validity of identities through 'biological support' and sorting some things into the Biologically Supported box and the Not Biologically Supported box, we'd better start deciding what's biologically supported and how. Otherwise it just reminds me too much of essentialism, Idk. I don't really trust that sort of stuff because again it reminds me of "scientific" research into why people are gay. [The identity] is biological because it sprung from the human mind and is therefore biological in origin.
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I consider all trans / not cis / enby / etc. identities valid, I think theres just a physical reason for why people feel the way they do and why they resonate with certain labels. Have we dug into every identity and fully understood it? Will we ever? No, and probably not, given the number of identities?
And that is also sort of what I'm getting at. Of course the identity is always biological because it sprung from the human mind, but what is the mechanism? Its a question of neuroscience. Why are people different? How do we make them feel better? I feel like its a fundamental question for the field.
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Then we just go back to 'does acting on it, altering themselves, make them feel better'. We're in a time loop, ash
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Do they even act on it though? What's that look like for them? We don't have otherkin or therians in the room right now and I don't have enough knowledge to say, so that's sort of a stopping block Idk. I want to interview and annoy people now...
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Now you understand why Ive talked to thousands of trans people over the past 10 or so years, you have the worm
Theres a documentary of some person that tried to make themself look as much like a tiger/cat or something as possible. I can't say I've met any otherkin IRL (but LOTS of furries of course), I've met some otherkin online but its usually questionable if its just some reactionary is cosplaying as one, they usually say something bad that tips me off.
Theres also some overlap with the bodymodding community, I think.
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Good thing I'm way too fuckin socially inept to do anything about it
cool as it would be...
"Documentary" here being "gawkfest"? I have low expectations for docs on "out-there" topics tbh. Do luv me furries tho =)
I luv me furries too
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Yeah gawkfest is a better term, lmao. Definitely a similar vibe as 'transgender documentaries' but at least it follows a real subject.
There are stories like this
But they seems pretty rare.
Yeah I saw the One Dog Suit Guy, I could not peer through the fog of excited gawking to see what his actual thing was tbh.
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I think it's clearly a combination of social and biological factors. I know, very brave of me to be a centrist lol.
I would like to ask a question
If you don't think there is a connection between gender and your biology (genes, hormones, funny brain things) what do you think makes a person want different hormones then what their body naturally makes? Or are you separating that from gender?
I suppose I feel like everything that makes me... me is from some sort of physical process, I don't believe in a "soul" or anything and I don't see how society could make me want to take hrt. I don't know, what does that leave you with?
Q and A corner
Okay firstly society isn't really making people wanna take HRT, I think. Extremely rare are cases of anyone pressured into other sex hormones I think.
But uh I dunno, what does make you want different hormones, BountifulEggnog? You don't like what testosterone does, right? Of course you also don't like being in the "male" gender role, which could be anything, maybe you just innately prefer being the other binary gender. Why? Who knows! I think people want different hormones because they like what those hormones do, what they make the body like. Or maybe because the hormone their body makes is something they goddamn hate. Just so happens those things line up with some genders!
You could certainly say that something happening in your brain makes you want estrogen, because I mean probably. It's probably at least as complicated as autism is neurologically, it's just how you are, innately. Idk, you have the desire to take estrogen and hate testosterone, hate being a man, simple as kinda.
talking about dysphoria
Yea I definitely don't see that being the case.
My brain (a biological thing) has a deep seated aversion to the rest of my body/hormones (more biological things). To be completely honest, it feels like something in my biology went a little fucky. I want hrt to appease my brain by bringing my body in sync. Its the only way to resolve this (what seems to me?) biological issue. (If you are going to say this is not an issue, my brain and rest of my body being out of sync has obviously caused me great pain and I would like you to explain.)
This is a lot harder for me to understand or explain. I do feel a draw for certain feminine things. Plushies, bracelets, obviously I think I'd like how my body looks on hrt and in fem clothes. I think the fact I get gender euphoria from that and not just like, them being things I like is because of society gendering those things (well and I suppose fem outfits are made to look good on fem bodies, so once I have the fem body
) I do remember liking a lot of them before I realized they were kinda gendered though, and just liking them in a normal way.
As far as not liking being in the male gender role... I guess its mostly body stuff? I don't like my male body hair. That feels (mostly) like a biological sex thing though. I don't like a lot of the toxic garbage that gets added onto being a man, but I'm not a fan of the toxic garbage women have to deal with either. I'm struggling to think of many "man" things I don't like because they are manly.
Oh definitely, everything in biology is complicated, especially the brain. I'm not suggesting there's some "woman" gene I got on accident, just like there's no single "autism" gene I got. But from my perspective, it definitely feels like a deep part of my brain just... disagrees with my body and my biology needs to be fixed (one way or the other, but obviously changing the body is what actually works). And like with autism its just kinda how I came out, my biology being a little off.
Thank you for talking about this with me, I definitely wandered off a bit but I hope this makes sense.
lfg!!
Uh why would I ever say that's not an issue? What gives you that impression? Do you not think the issue I describe is (was, I guess?) my issue as well? Of course it is an issue. I view it as: my brain wants estrogen, or the effects of estrogen, and my body does not produce it. I will intervene. The way you describe it sounds normal to me. What the actual literal biological cause is or if it exists quite as a "biological issue" or whatever is unknown, but clearly you want to be a different way than you are physically, sounds good. Brain yells "I DO NOT WANT THE T STUFF GIVE ME THE E STUFF", and you oblige it. Seriously, what gives you the impression that I do not think dysphoria is an issue??? I am literally on feminising hormone replacement therapy
Yeah, how much or if the societal gendering factors into that is a hazy matter, I guess. I do find it fascinating that you mostly divorce this from gender role stuff, that's neat! I only said because you mentioned really hating that women would perceive you as a man and be cautious. If you view it as mostly an issue of biology that's totally cool too tbh. Struggle to think of "man" things you do not like, hm...
I don't think that's entirely disagreeable, like there's a biological root for everything humans do because it's all governed by the brain, even if external factors can wedge in at some point. The potential hormonal component of being trans I think we can say has some brain cause, or something. I would not try to say "people just do medical transition things to fit binary gender", because no matter how silly the binary is, people really clearly want these things regardless, which is all good... granted, I was also tormented by bottom dysphoria for near a decade and then after some processing and realising a new gender, a new interal perception, I find myself not that worried. So I do think societal norms and stuff can play in very occasionally, but I'm also just one weirdo, and people should have whatever the fuck they like in transition terms. Whatever I might say about social construction, if something is causing someone distress, ask them what they need and then give it to them, probably. Even if the social construction shit influences someone, if they're happy does it matter?
Np, I'm happy to chat, and it does make sense to me, hope I could help a lil
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I don't know
sometimes I say things and I think people will react one way and they don't. And I felt like maybe that would be too close to calling being trans an issue for people to be okay with. Sometimes I genuinely have no idea how people will react and it makes me very worried. I know that trans people get very defensive at the idea that being trans is an issue to be fixed (kinda like with autism) and I just struggle to understand the actual line in the sand that upsets people (or if what I say will be misunderstood to mean something else, god I hate that). idk. Probably my autism. This happens a lot to me.
I don't know, I'm probably not explaining it well. I do want to be a woman/girl but... I don't know I feel like the biological stuff is a bigger issue. If people socially saw everyone the same without gender labels I'd be a huge fan overall though.
Although I suppose I really do prefer she/her to they/them (once I transition at least), so I am not completely free from gender roles.
I mean this is kinda from toxic gender role stuff though, isn't it? Men being a danger to women and then women being fearful. And I don't think I've ever been that way? Obviously it feels shitty to feel like people see you as a threat, especially if you aren't. Not that I'm saying women don't have good reason to be careful.
Yes this paragraph is all very agreeable to me.
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One of my favourite things I have learned, and people fucking hate this, is that you cannot predict a human being. You would need access to their every thought ever to predict how any given person is going to behave. Chaotic creatures!!!
I see though, makes sense. Being trans is not an issue itself, and dysphoria is only an "issue" in the sense it hurts people and should be treated however they desire basically. The reason that viewing being trans or autistic as an "issue" gets people up in arms is because it's normative, seeking to cure trans and nd people back to cis or nt states, viewed as a deviation. Treating dysphoria, however, helps beautiful lovely trans people be beautiful lovely and trans ✨ You will still see people chafe at the medicalisation of dysphoria somewhat, because medicalisation can be bad mojo in general, but y'know it's fine.
Well however you parse it is fine, I think, if you see the biology as the main thing. I find it fascinating that you describe the utter destruction of gender as something you'd be a big fan of though!!!
I have that too though, she/her just tickles me Idk why. I guess because of the two binary genders I am closer to "woman", but I do not really get why I find she/her funny tbh.
Yeahhhhhh toxic gender role shit
that makes total sense, I see. You especially don't wanna be viewed as threatening for a gender you aren't even being, understandable.
:>
I sorta assumes agender is often (but not necessarily always) a result of autism/asexuality intersecting with other gender stuff. Partly because that's my personal experience. But probably also because on reddit, a lot of people on the agender subreddit found their way through the aroace communities (because of things like AAA battery jokes). So... it was practically 100% ace & autistic people and that might not be reflective of the general population.
...is that biological support though? Plus, I'm certain people arrive at agender without being autistic or ace now and then, has to be. Idk, "biological support" goofy...
The idea of "biological support" seems to be overly black/white thinking imo. Just another way of talking about "nature vs nurture" when its usually more of a "nature & nurture" for everything (although questions of how much observed variations occur to observed variations in inherited factors vs pre-birth environment vs post-birth environment are essentially still looking at trying to look at the same underlying question of "nature vs nurture" without making it a binary).
So I don't really mean to talk about the biological support issue. But if its the intersection of autism and gender, then whether agender can be explained as a biological would depend on your explanations of autism and gender.
Yes that was my thinking too :3 I wasn't a big fan of the concept either, hence my annoying hammering. And yeah that's pretty much what it all comes back to, Idk I just did not dig "biologically supported" as a concept.
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Transness probably has more of a biological root compared to the therian phenomenon, but there are obviously sociological factors as well. It's like how some people think if we abolished sex as a social class then people wouldn't feel dysphoric. A lot would probably still want to change their body, but yeah it's fair to say they'd likely have less dysphoria at least. Eg, there's a difference between a face feminized be estrogen and one masculinized by testosterone, but then there's also cultural ideas of masculinity and femininity related to facial hair and makeup. I'd imagine in such a society you'd have people going on hormones but having a lot less anxiety about passing.
The issue is we don't fully understand the brain and we can't make societies in a jar. So all we're left with is attempts at reasoning.
Would the furry com have some answers?
i've been aware of otherkin for around a decade but wouldnt know where to start.
If my brain allows me to i might be able to talk a little from my perspective on it. Im a cat. In my case it is along the lines of what TerminalEncounter described.
also sorry if that sounds like a grilling, i try to collect info to help trans peeps i find
Its ok. I might not write this until i come back home, so it might be over a week until I reply.
Np
discussion of discrimination, what you want to do medically?
So I guess the thing I want to know most is like, how does this effect you on the day to day. I take estrogen in the morning and so on and I wear womens clothing and use feminine pronouns etc etc. What's being an otherkin like? Do you intend on altering yourself or your habits in any way? Is it different than being a furry and how so?
Does anyone discriminate against you? What's that like? How would you describe it vs being transgender?