shinji is a child soldier though, the popular opinion of him sucking seems to forget that
I hope you enjoy it and eventually watch the remakes, it's all good stuff
I just don't understand why the child soldier won't just get in the giant murder blood robot he doesn't know how to control, the robot that has a traumatizing neural interface which makes the pilot feel the pain of the robot's injuries. The one that also makes the robot go berserk and kill everyone nearby if he's not focused (happens multiple times). His abusive absentee dad said he needs to! Didn't he read the script??
Tbh it seems like the world partially ended already - plus I don't think shinji really gets the scope of the potential disaster right away. It's not like NERV & Gendo are transparent about the stakes and their goals...
Don't know how far into the series you are but from where you've mentioned watching to, without spoilers, I'll say that as it goes on there are a good few silly bits, a constant undercurrent of creepy perv stuff, and many many more examples of why Gendo is a fuckhead lol. I don't blame Shinji for finding him sus at all
His dad is just some asshole basically, you gotta put some effort in and have some charisma to indoctrinate a kid, Shinjis is basically a big walking billboard that he'd do anything for some verbal approval and a pat on the back and his dads too stubborn and dumb to even pick up on that being the clear play.
Look at real indoctrination of child soldiers. They will force children to murder, then nurture and “heal” them, and often times it’s their loved ones.
Evangelion, the TV show, was on TV so it had more restrictions. But I feel like their idea of indoctrination was getting Misato to sexually groom Shinji, which does happen IRL and is successful (see religion and cults), but usually not in the war context.
There’s a show called Jormungand which is about a child soldier being part of a PMC and dealing with his trauma and hatred of weapons. I’ve only seen a couple episodes, but I’m curious if the themes are similar to Evangelion. I just can’t take all the sci-fi/fantasy elements seriously in Eva.*
*A literal soul being captured by the living and used in technology is an interesting element though. The game Beyond Two Souls was terrible, but this was part of the climax, and somehow it made me cry while Eva did nothing but frustrate me
God I love Evangelion. A lot of people don't like it, and frankly there is a lot not to like about it, but honestly there is no more impactful media in my life. I can personally attribute a big portion of my development to Evangelion.
spoiler for the theme of End of Evangelion, nothing plot-related. Also CW for mental health, depression and suicide.
The message of EoE, or what spoke to me, was that life comes with hardship. There is no perfect world in which everything is easy and nothing goes wrong and you don't have to grow. To wish for such a world is to wish to be a god, or to be dead. To wish that everything was easy is to wish that nothing had any meaning.
I was incredibly an incredibly depressed and suicidal teen when I found Evangelion. In the first few episodes, Shinji asks why he shouldn't run away from his problems. Why shouldn't he avoid something that makes him unhappy? I was watching this and thinking, yes, Shinji is right, do what you enjoy in the moment and nothing else matters. I was constantly skipping school so I could go home and play video games, watch anime and develop a porn addiction. I thought that by merely doing what I wanted and avoiding what was hard for me, I could make myself happy. This didnt work. I was still depressed, I just didn't recognise it.
Shinji learns the value of connection throughout the show. The "hedgehog's dilemma" is brought up - the idea that hedgehogs want to be close to each other, but will prick each other with their spines. Getting close to someone might hurt. It's hard, and it could go wrong.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. You should try things that could go wrong. You can learn from your mistakes. You are allowed to be imperfect.
It's worth the risk of getting hurt, if it means you might be happier. It's worth trying to live a happy life, because when youre already depressed, you have nothing to lose.
I think I was 15 when I watched Eva, only one year older than Shinji. Depression was not new to me. I had tried to kill myself, and given up on living a happy life. My plan was to simply make it to 18, use up all my money on indulgances, and kill myself. Now I'm alive, as an adult, and I want things. I want to protect my friends and be loved and make a better world. I don't want to die anymore. And I attribute a lot of that to the message of Evangelion, which told me so directly, like nothing else ever has, that life is worth living, not in spite of the uncertainty, but because of it. Because uncertainty is a part of living, and living a life trying to avoid it is not living at all
Anyway. Don't try to understand the lore, it's not important and doesn't make any sense. Things will just happen. Don't worry about how or why. The actual plot of this show makes next to no sense if you just watch the original 26 episodes.
I'm getting "mad max"-type-lore from the show, where you won't ever be told directly what is going on or why people do what they do, but the world is vivid you might be able to infer it and even if you don't, you kinda get it.
https://youtu.be/6IQqPMsIfX4
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Anyway, bit idea: Guy who only watches Evangelion for the fights.
Me as a teenager watching Eva. Came for the robots, stayed for the psycho-sexual drama.(EoE's got a banger fight though).
trying to figure out if all of the pervy stuff is on purpose or only most of it and some of it is just pure awooga
I think the goal is to explore repressed young male teen sexutality. This show reminded me of what it is to be a virgin straight boy
Yeah you're right they definitely planted some
for commercial appealGainax unfortunately has long been
Gunbuster is a great example, totally unnecessary fanservice (at least in Eva it emphasizes shinjis awkward nature) except for the moment where
spoiler
Noriko tears her shirt open so the Gunbuster can do the same in episode 6
That moment is kino, but the rest of the service is sadly just very commercial appeal based.
Lmao not me screaming AT FIELD during primary school yard fights nuh uh
episodes 24-26 and End of Evangelion are absolute cinema. kino. masterpieces.
Well, except for the groomer vibes she's giving off.
MISATO SLANDER SHE RAISED THOSE KIDS THE BEST SHE COULD AND WAS NEVER A GROOMER
spoiler
his ass would've never gotten down to the EVA if she hadn't kissed him before pushing him in the elevator & she knew she was dying. I'm letting her off the hook. MISATO INNOCENT!!!!!!
Nah a lot of the allegations probably really come from End of Evangelion (but still are wrong imo), which I won't spoil for you but highly recommend you watch after you finish!
dude get in the fucking robot the world is ending
He's a child suffering from PTBS and depression. He barely has the spoons to do anything but lie flat on the floor, yet he is supposed to save the fucking world. ofc he struggles under that weight, that's the normal and expectable reaction in that context and it's honestly surprising that given the enormity of what is asked of him, he somehow manages to pull through. Which he does. He just (very realistically) suffers like a dog while doing it instead of being some dumbass superhero fantasy who always keeps his toothpaste smile in spite of seeing everything he knows being flattened under an apocalyptic onslaught.
The show is a callout of a toxic culture that demands duty and functionality at all times, no matter if the person in question is even remotely capable of it. I don't know if somebody without a history of depression, ADHD or other issues that can actively destroy your ability to perform even the most trivial everyday tasks is capable of understanding this, but it's actually ableist af to expect a boy like him to get reliably retraumatized over and over again without ever complaining about hand-to-hand combat against giant cosmic horrors that need to be drawn with a dwarved aircraft carrier group next to them to demonstrate their mind-rending scale . Shinji acts heroically because he almost always does what is needed, but he doesn't perform the aesthetics of what we think heroism is supposed to look like, he is visibly vulnerable and struggling instead of bottling up his pain and hanging in there for the job and because the show dares to take the needed time to appropriately portray that fight with himself, this has led to several generations of reactionary incels getting mad at him.
Not calling you a reactionary incel, mind you. I understand how you arrive at your impression, i had the same when i watched the show for the first time when i saw it on nighttime TV back in the late 90s and had only the faintest glimpse of what severe executive dysfunction looks like. But that this view is so widespread is a sign of the ableism and toxic masculinity we've all internalized to some degree.
I get it and i'm sorry if i've come across as looking to start a fight. I just feel this stuff needs to be pointed out when there's an Evangelion thread.
Ok you're being sufficiently clear here.
It's very hard to sympathise with Shinji being afraid to get in the robot, when the entire world is at stake.
See I find it incredibly easy to sympathise with St. Shinji in this situation because the entire world is at stake, the enormous pressure on the shoulders of some "literally me" mentally fucked up kid with crippling insecurity, mediated only by the disappointment of the absent Father. "Realistically" how would you know that he is even capable of piloting the evil doohicky without any training to even save the world?
It's hard to sympathise with him being afraid, when the alternative to getting in the robot is also him dying.
"Its hard to sympathise with him being afraid, when the two choices from his POV in the moment both lead to suffering and a painful death."
Ok.
Furthermore:
I already dislike Shinji though, dude get in the fucking robot the world is ending. I guess sucking is hereditary...
Its a bit unfair to say that some relatively normal socially estranged 14 year old with chronic insecurity "sucks" because he reacts in a reasonable way to the proposition of fighting to the death with some lovecraftian entity because his deadbeat nutjob dad said so with the weight of saving the literal world on his shoulders.
In this universe, NERV and the UN classify as an "advanced civilization that is too stupid to exist" for making the necessary set of strategic blunders that result in a the fate of the world lying squarely on whether an emotionally unstable chronically insecure untrained 14 year old (famous for being reliable individuals) who needs a loving family more than his own personal nightmare engine will not act like an emotionally unstable chronically insecure 14 year old. Even from the 1st episode, I would say this is reasonably clear.
Your frustration implies that you expected differently.
*>inb4 "yeah i considered all of this but Shinji still sucks."
"Muh both sides". In this situation, I blame civil society, moreso than the individual pilot for the fuckery at hand. Therefore, I think civil society sucks, not the pilot. Nuff said.
Lmk how I misinterpreted "Shinji sucks because he didn't want to get in the robot to save humanity."
Which is strange, because he actually did end up "getting in the robot" at the end of the day, and jobbed hard in EP1 (as expected), so in the end the robot did all the work and we got a sick fight scene.
spoiler for End of Evangelion, SA
That said, Shinji is also a fucking sex pest who masturbates to completion standing next to Asuka's comatose body and when the film calls him out for being a sex pest, it does so with an endless horny fanservice montage of Asuka's, Rei's and Misato's asses, tits and feet. Because anime.
That really is my biggest problem with Evangelion, it wants to critique the cake and dissect its inner workings but also eat the cake too
It was the show that really got anime to click with me, enjoy! Now I'm working thru all 1200 episodes of One Piece.
Only 600ish to go!
JUST started Fish man Island this morning, right after the time skip.
Without saying too much, im guessing you're referring to some character from around this period? Or rather, someone we've already met?
Thanks for reminding me that I need to actually watch this one of these days
It fucking sucks, and you should absolutely watch it.
Make sure to watch the original run first. Then watch The End of Evangelion. Then watch Rebuild of Evangelion. Every new Evangelion product you watch will explain everything. I promise.
spoiler
It won't.
Look it all comes together if you just play the Japan-only N64 Evangelion fighting game.
Anyway, bit idea: Guy who only watches Evangelion for the fights.
(As a teenager)
tuned in for the fights stayed for the mean red head.Honestly I think the “groomer” allegations with Misato are way overstated by people.
She has a difficult relationship with…well relationships and sexuality and this leaks out a few times, but when I watched the show I pretty much got to almost the end not really getting why it was such a meme.I mean in some ways they are all being groomed by being manipulated and pressured into being child soldiers, but you know what I mean…I don’t think Misato has any actual attraction to Shinji like that.
I think the show purposefully skirts the line between “hot babysitter” and “mother figure” if that makes sense, but I think the first has more emphasis placed on it by people when I think through more of the show she is the latter.
yeah it's great, there are a few bits of filler which could've been worked into the story with a little effort IMO (maybe the remakes/rebuilds fix this, I didnt get into the artistic direction)
OP dont read wont make sense anyway
been a while so might mess up a detail but in the lilliputian hitcher they already bothered having it infect the magi and they reprogrammed the angel to defeat it or whatever, they could've done something at that time with unit 1 to later explain being able to eat zuriel and use the s1 engine
I already dislike Shinji though, dude get in the fucking robot the world is ending.
U wot? Like someone else already said all my thoughts exactly but I just have to chime in and say "give the kid a break", too. Like if you're going to dislike Shinji for anything, dislike him for that scene in The End of Evangelion that made me start noting down any anime I watch that include at any point a POV shot of a character looking down at the palm of sy right hand with slightly bent fingers.
Anyways I've been watching Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water lately and it's been interesting seeing these common elements and motifs between that show and NGE, since Hideaki Anno directed both. Most famously there's the つづく and Shinji's character design being inspired by Nadia — Shinji was originally going to be a girl, in fact, which kinda-sorta adds to trans readings of NGE.
Show
Not gonna spoil anything but the Shinji and Kaworu stuff later kinda fucked me up when I first went through the series and made me feel some kinda way
but I also think it's understandable to react to that with "come the fuck on dude, Tokyo was just blown up."
*removed unintentional spoiler
"bro theres this giant alien which leveled half a city and ate 2 supernukes like it was nothing, we're just gonna need you to drown inside this nightmare engine with no training and take it out real quick..."
nah the entire situation was a horror show, humanity was on borrowed time as soon as a 14 year old was tasked with saving it
everyone he loves will die
Who? Gendo? Rei? Lol. Lmao.
The stakes of the present moment are made out to be so massive, that I struggle to sympathise with him.
You see, the crushing weight of the task at hand is exactly why he is St. Shinji. To "fail" so purely in meeting tremendous unfair expectations set by what seems to be an uncaring universe.
You are currently not alienated enough from the socioeconomic order to relate to the sentiments, so you read it more literally and get frustrated. You don't see the picture behind the bigger picture.
Yeah I don't think the situation is optimal either
Nah that's an understatement lol it's so horrifically FUBAR that, as you mentioned, it's funny.
I don't know who loves
He has no-one else except maybe the sensei he mentions boarding with.
Yeah, I agree?
That's why a lot of people, including me, think he's based. We are legion.
Legit fuck you.
No thanks.
you are arguing as if I dismiss the bigger picture, the themes or the motivations of the characters, despite the fact that I acknowledge them.
Yeah you acknowledge them intellectually but clearly can't fully relate so you dislike the character. That's what I'm trying to say. I apologize if I wasn't being sufficiently clear.
Don't escalate things further with that hostility of yours, please.
"I already dislike Shinji though, dude get in the fucking robot the world is ending."
HAHAHA YESS THE PERFECT EXCUSE TO START THE MUDFIGHT FROM 3 YEARS AGO AGAIN!!!
We've been thru this before?
Ohhh yeah you bet!!! Your side got annihilated!
Miscommunication and frustration
Nah you were crystal clear buddy. I'll be seeing you.
that doesn't have an "objective" foundation or singular "correct answer" is funny.
M8 thats the point, its a hyperbolic way of saying that there was an internet argument between shinji haters and non shinji haters, the former lost.
I always am, and people still manage to misinterpret me. A lot of people on hexbear are very dogmatic, triggerhappy and predisposed, which leads to a lot of situations where people half-read something, make the worst assumptions about the other and then begin to argue something that wasn't even mentioned by the other. It happens so often.
Ok, if you value calm discussion then you have the options of not engaging in a hostile way or just log off for a bit?
You're saying that's the point, and then saying the opposite of what I am saying
No you're right, there isn't an "objective" answer so consensus was determined by who could debatebro their point better, that is what I mean.
I am responding in a hostile manner because you are engaging in the processes which I have described as being frustrating.
I was talking in general. If you are having some consistent problem here just log off for a bit.
Keep in mind that Eva is also meta-criticism of mecha as a genre- almost every single child soldier pilot in all the shows before Eva kinda uncritically “got in the robot”, and Anno going “wait that’s kinda fucked up actually” is why Eva’s considered a deconstruction
Also I think a lot of replies you’re getting are from people who finished the show, and a bit further in the show is really going to dig into Shinji’s character and he gets a little more sympathetic there I think
Ok so this is kinda a big topic but I'll do my best to break it down. To cut to the chase I think Eva stands on it's own reasonably well, although maybe knowing the general history of the genre or having a passing familiarity with the tropes may enhance your enjoyment of the show.
Mecha as a genre starts with Super Robot (Tetsujin-28, Mazinger Z, Getter Robo), as an extension of the kinda Sci-Fi stories made popular by the likes of Astroboy. To broadly generalize these are (usually) Saturday Morning Cartoon stuff, adjacent to tokusatsu (live action special effects shows, think Power Rangers and Ultraman) so it's all simplistic young protagonist saves the world from the forces of evil with their cool giant robot Modernist Power of Science and Progress power fantasy (but also some of these original shows go into WILD places because basically if your writing Sci-Fi in Japan in the 70's you're some kinda Leftist). Imo you don't have to go watch these old shows, just knowing that they very much directly inspire Eva should give you all the background you need here.
As we get to the 80's, we get to the Real Robot split. Basically creators decide that they've had enough of writing Saturday Morning Cartoons, they want to write real hard Sci-Fi like Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clark and Robert Heinlein... and then finding out the only way to do that is to make animated toy commercials. But they manage to despite this commercial limitation, so you get shows like Mobile Suit Gundam and Space Battleship Yamato which are nuanced meditations on the nature of war drawn from the lived experiences of the generation that survived WW2, and they express their anti-fascism very strongly in their art.
I highly recommend the original Mobile Suit Gundam (UC0079). The compilation movies (Mobile Suit Gundam The Movie, Mobile Suit Gundam II: Soldiers of Sorrow and Mobile Suit Gundam III: Encounters in Space) are great watches and condense the series into a decent runtime, although you will definitely miss some stuff from the series. It serves as a pretty decent baseline for what Eva is critiquing, although even here there's more nuance than "Gundam Tropes Bad", where Eva is more in a dialogue with things Gundam's doing as a story that's evolving beyond the kinda pulpy Saturday Morning Cartoon roots of the genre.
Mecha as a genre is compelling because the Giant Robot is such a potent visual metaphor and storytelling vehicle. But I think what's special about Eva, and why it has lasting power as a story, is because up till that point no one had ever bothered to question if the kinds of stories we tell ourselves about our technology and our wars were worth telling in the first place, or if they're just comforting lies designed to fill a vacuum in our souls. I think Eva still stands up well even without the larger context of the deconstruction, just from it's sheer brazenness in being willing to break down every single tiny aspect of it's characters and dive into their psychology, while avoiding easy answers, to show human beings as the messy imperfect creatures that they are- it's more character study than anything else.
(And, like, it's extremely wild that this kinda injection of Postmodern literature is happening to... what isn't really that far off from a Saturday Morning Cartoon, but the 90's were the Wild West of animation, History had Ended (thanks Francis Fukuyama) and um, the director of Eva really suffered from severe depression so... hey, I guess poison pilling existential dread into your Giant Robot show is a winning formula or we wouldn't be talking about it now.)
P.S. Gurren Lagann is my favourite show of all time (or close to it) but I'll strongly recommend you watch it after Evangelion. Basically the staff who worked on that show were the protege's of the staff who worked on Eva, and Gurren Lagann was them saying "Hey you were right to question all those tropes, but the underlying principles the genre is built on, Hopefulness of the Future and a Belief in the Human Spirit (I'm trying to be as vague as possible to avoid spoilers) aren't bad things and are worth preserving and we're going to prove it with this show." It's a continuation of that larger meta-dialogue all this art is having, and imo it's best experienced in order.
I like your whole writeup just gonna toss in a joke that after watching evangelion going to gurren lagann would be such a whiplash in terms of vibes you'd better protecc that necc
Never been a huge fan of mecha anime, but Gurren Lagann is pretty fucking good
Or if he wasn't emotionally abused and was encouraged instead
and also if the plot and the mythology made any god damned sense instead of being vaguely judeochristian-colored BS put in a blender and smeared over the screen.
anyway, yeah, i know art can be uncomfortable and shit, but i hate watching a show where the main selling point is "look, abusing a kid is bad and it fucks them up". i already know this. watching it just makes me feel awful, and with the shitty ass ending of NGE, there's not even any point to anyone's suffering. it's the equivalent of someone scraping their nails on a blackboard for 20+ episodes, watching you writhe in pain, for no reason at all.
