PSL runs in elections but not as electoralists. They use it as a means of exposure and honestly it works. Between 2012 and 2016 they increased their number of votes by 10x and since then their membership has skyrocketed. The number of cadre is exploding since Bernie dropped out and they are taking up the mantle of the US's foremost Communist Party.
Except PSL turned their votes into real on the ground organizing in disadvantaged communities while the Green Party turned their votes into seething liberals.
PSL is the only Socialist group that does anything in the black neighborhoods here. DSA will table outside JHU to talk to kids who will become millionaires within the next 15 years while PSL organizes and radicalizes entire section 8 apartment buildings in their anti-slumlord campaign. They actually have old black grannies becoming MLs and joining the party. This is the green party
It's insane how much such a small group of dedicated cadres can do. They are admittedly a very tiny chapter here (though they're in the process of doubling their ranks) but from what they can achieve in the neighborhoods, you'd think they were a massive nonprofit. It's the dedication that can move mountains.
Why are you confused about people supporting the party who they agree with? They put together this entire campaign why the hell wouldn't I give them my vote? What the fuck has the green party done for me to support them?
i think all these groups are good to varying extents and should learn from each other and maybe figure out a way to actually create a left wing power structure in this country by organizing together around different issues
In my experience, their organization is a disaster & they are incredibly ineffectual given their member base. But they still do some useful work in my city.
Millions of people see their name on the ballot without knowing who they are. Then they see a bunch of people voted for them after the election, and a tiny fraction of them look into it and get involved. Even if 10,000 PSL votes translate into one new cadre, it's better than everything the green party has done for the last 20 years.
Look at the conversation we are having. It's about Howie vs La Riva for a spot they won't ever win. The fact that it's PSL and not the CPUSA or WWP or SAlt that we are talking about matters. Even if the party will never win an election, having PSL on the ballot and getting votes legitimizes them in a way that other parties can't.
I don't give a shit what the green party does. They're just a bunch of crystal healer boomers and conspiracy cranks that lose elections and do literally nothing else. What I want is for Communists and other revolutionary minded socialists to quit their microparties and join PSL and do good work on the ground bringing actual Proles into the ranks and not just PMCs with politics brain
Whatever dude vote for the crank party. I'm sure they will get 5% and then the government will give them public fundarinos and the government definitely won't just change the laws, then in 40 years when we definitely still have a liberal democracy we can get a GP supermajority and pass a bill establishing socialism :ferret:
PSL is objectively gaining traction from running in elections and one tiny chapter of PSL does more good work in a month than the Green Party has its entire existence
Because objectively PSL getting more votes legitimizes them and draws politically active people towards them. That's literally the whole reason for running. You guys just want to own the libs by splitting their vote. I'm not a child and I see the benefit of voting for PSL.
As someone who's been guilty of this in the past, let's not call honest comrades who disagree with us "wreckers". Especially over such a meaningless issue.
5% election fundarinos, at least if the feds fuck them out of it
They will strip funding if Libertarians or Greens break 5%. That's not a question.
literally why vote PSL outside of some magic wishful thinking that getting a fraction of a percent or changing that to 1% will “get us more supporters”
If someone asks me why I support La Riva, I can give an honest answer. That's about it. "Electoral strategizing" is embarrassing when the rules will always change to fuck the working class.
He does not recognize that the existing state must be crushed for any political change to happen. That's a huge misunderstanding of reality.
Man it’s a shame constantly changing rules isn’t useful propaganda to serve to radicalize the fucked over working class
Correct. It is not useful propaganda. Everyone knows politics is rigged.
We should vote for a party that has 0% chance of prompting any of that to happen
From what I've seen this year, PSL has done significantly more to radicalize the working class than Greens. I have seen literally nothing from the Greens.
They are just a bourgeois democratic party. All they do is run elections. The working class needs mass popular politics to create change. The Greens are not serious about building that. They are, at best, not helpful.
What part of "I'm voting for La Riva because she's the only one whose politics I support" do you not understand?
I never said that we're going to "crush the state" by voting. I said that I do not agree with Howie's politics. And I'm not going to make up some lie about why I support him.
you’re out here with this VOTE PSL VOTES = MORE SUPPORT
I literally never said this.
Like literally why the fuck not just vote greens SINCE IT’S A FUCKING BOURGEOIS ELECTION THAT DOESN’T MATTER and then actually put your real life effort into organizing with the PSL?
Why, exactly, should I vote for Greens? You never gave an answer to this that was convincing. "Well, maybe this time the ruling parties change the rules, people will care" is not convincing.
I'm already voting for a local judge who decriminalized fare evasion on public transit.
And people talk about the election. I've explained to quite a few people in my life my genuine support for La Riva, and I've convinced a few to learn more about the party.
The Green Party has never done anything except run failed candidates every 4 years why would I vote for a party that's shown to be entirely opportunistic and careerist and not inherently based in any real material working class struggle?
lol and what does it mean for a "green party candidate" to win elections when the party platform is entirely up the air and only now has even been described as socialist in any way? There's not a single green party member in any state or national elected position currently, after the party existing for 20 years. Who is a well known "green party" politician? What has the green party actually done to advance working class struggles? The DSA has only really been active nationally in any serious way over the past 4 years and has already done more and gotten more people into meaningful positions of power than the Green Party.
to be clear, the green party currently has 130 members holding minor offices, 20 years after their foundation. i kind of doubt they’ve actually had “thousands” of people elected at all but if you have better data that’d be cool to see
Listening to PSL nerds try to talk down to the Green Party is deeply hilarious. The PSL and the Green Party were founded 3 years apart. The PSL has accomplished fuck all and is on the ballot in 15 states (no one sees your party name if you are a fucking write in), and the Greens have accomplished fuck all and every voter in the country will see their name on the ballot. There is no metric by which the PSL is could be considered more successful.
I'm not even a fucking Green Party person, some of you online PSL nerds are just that deeply fucking annoying and delusional.
ah yes the metric by which you're considered successful is whether your name is on the ballot lol. PSL actually organizes poor working class people, something the green party has never cared about. if i go join the green party in NYC right now what sort of organizing and work are they doing here and what have they done during covid and the protests here in the city? Nothing. A non existent party, amazing.
Which is it, getting on the ballot gets your name out there for more people to see, or getting on the ballot isn't actually important? I can't seem to follow your cope.
the PSL has been advocating and fighting for socialism for years and actually furthering the movement in significant and important ways, the greens barely just started even mentioning it, and also explicitly coming out against "state socialism". i couldnt give a fuck about ballots, the greens do fuck all when it comes down to it, so wtf does it matter that they get these votes if it never translated into anything more than a sparing campaign for climate advocacy? shit Sunrise just got founded and they already blew the fucking Greens out of relevancy in that field.
i dont give a fuck about the ballots in terms of using that as the metric to an org being successful or not. "There is no metric by which the PSL is could be considered more successful." 🙄
"Look at all these states where PSL is on the ballot!" to "Actually it's not that important, fuck being on the ballot..."
You keep talking like I'm supposed to judge the PSL by what's in their fucking heart. Intentions don't matter. The current 100+ Greens that hold local dog catcher and chairman of the annual hot dog parade committee hold and exercise more power than the PSL has in its entire history. I'm not gonna be lectured on the superiority of a fucking party that ran Roseanne Barr for president.
You're a fucking idiot if you think the green party holding bullshit positions in small cities in random places means anything. The PSL literally runs radical tenants unions that are capable of staging rent strikes. They've shown in the BLM protests that they're able to lead people to break the law in protest. There is no current or former Green Party member who could rouse a crowd of thousands like Eugene Puryear did in Philly (no official count but it looked bigger than most Bernie rallies). They don't have state power but they have people power. That's something you need to understand if you want Socialism.
Literally the two Green Party candidates who are Chair and a Commisioner of the Rent Stabilization Board in Berkeley, CA have more power to effect the lives of renter's than the like 50 tenants unions the PSL has organized in its history.
The PSL doesn't have "people power". If they had people power, I wouldn't be looking at a map where they are only on the ballot in 13 states, when the primmary requirement for getting on the ballot is getting people to sign a petition. People didn't show up the that rally in Philadelphia because Eugene Puryear and the PSL were involved, they showed up because it was a BLM rally in a diverse, left-leaning city in the middle of one of the largest protest movements against racism in this country's history. Don't confuse doing entryism with having power. No one was calling that rally the "PSL rally".
While we are on the topic of Eugene Puryear, remind me, which party did he run under in DC, in between his two attempts to be PSL VP candidate?
Thanks for posting some evidence that the Greens are helpful to the working class.
Which ones are green? https://www.cityofberkeley.info/Rent_Stabilization_Board/Home/Meet/Contact_the_Board.aspx
This site says the chair is a democrat: https://votersedge.org/ca/en/election/2020-03-03/alameda-county/member-democratic-party-county-central-committee-assembly-district-15-alameda-portion/paola-laverde
Actually Greens are missing from a lot of ballots this year. Wisconsin and Pennsylvania aren't the only ones. They just didn't bother to collect signatures
Again, people voting for La Riva objectively helps PSL get bigger. I understand that you're more invested in making a scene for the libs in hopes that they will notice you, but personally I don't think that will ever lead to anything.
If you think the PSL wants to be a larger party, you don't know much about the PSL. It takes years and countless people vouching for you to become a member.
I know members and am considering joining myself. It takes about 6 months to become a member, and that's right now when they're flooded with applications. They 100% want to get bigger, but without compromising the quality of cadres. They don't need to have 5,000,000 members, because most membersr in most parties don't do anything. PSL wants to get as many dedicated Marxist-Leninists as possible.
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Caring about getting 5% is a big electoralist :cope:
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PSL runs in elections but not as electoralists. They use it as a means of exposure and honestly it works. Between 2012 and 2016 they increased their number of votes by 10x and since then their membership has skyrocketed. The number of cadre is exploding since Bernie dropped out and they are taking up the mantle of the US's foremost Communist Party.
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Except PSL turned their votes into real on the ground organizing in disadvantaged communities while the Green Party turned their votes into seething liberals.
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:maduro_coffee-big:
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no but see its a "strategic" waste of time lol
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PSL is the only Socialist group that does anything in the black neighborhoods here. DSA will table outside JHU to talk to kids who will become millionaires within the next 15 years while PSL organizes and radicalizes entire section 8 apartment buildings in their anti-slumlord campaign. They actually have old black grannies becoming MLs and joining the party. This is the green party
That’s sick af and I didn’t know any of this until now.
It's insane how much such a small group of dedicated cadres can do. They are admittedly a very tiny chapter here (though they're in the process of doubling their ranks) but from what they can achieve in the neighborhoods, you'd think they were a massive nonprofit. It's the dedication that can move mountains.
Why are you confused about people supporting the party who they agree with? They put together this entire campaign why the hell wouldn't I give them my vote? What the fuck has the green party done for me to support them?
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damn dude you’re getting drug around by the hair this whole thread. maybe just drop the green shite and join the party itself
Lol
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Are they though
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i think all these groups are good to varying extents and should learn from each other and maybe figure out a way to actually create a left wing power structure in this country by organizing together around different issues
In my experience, their organization is a disaster & they are incredibly ineffectual given their member base. But they still do some useful work in my city.
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No I wasn't lol I'd never say the DSA was good
ah well that's cool i'll give em that i guess lol
This is why I refuse to vote for them lmao, their "goals" are unattainble.
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Millions of people see their name on the ballot without knowing who they are. Then they see a bunch of people voted for them after the election, and a tiny fraction of them look into it and get involved. Even if 10,000 PSL votes translate into one new cadre, it's better than everything the green party has done for the last 20 years.
Look at the conversation we are having. It's about Howie vs La Riva for a spot they won't ever win. The fact that it's PSL and not the CPUSA or WWP or SAlt that we are talking about matters. Even if the party will never win an election, having PSL on the ballot and getting votes legitimizes them in a way that other parties can't.
I don't give a shit what the green party does. They're just a bunch of crystal healer boomers and conspiracy cranks that lose elections and do literally nothing else. What I want is for Communists and other revolutionary minded socialists to quit their microparties and join PSL and do good work on the ground bringing actual Proles into the ranks and not just PMCs with politics brain
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Whatever dude vote for the crank party. I'm sure they will get 5% and then the government will give them public fundarinos and the government definitely won't just change the laws, then in 40 years when we definitely still have a liberal democracy we can get a GP supermajority and pass a bill establishing socialism :ferret:
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PSL is objectively gaining traction from running in elections and one tiny chapter of PSL does more good work in a month than the Green Party has its entire existence
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Because objectively PSL getting more votes legitimizes them and draws politically active people towards them. That's literally the whole reason for running. You guys just want to own the libs by splitting their vote. I'm not a child and I see the benefit of voting for PSL.
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As someone who's been guilty of this in the past, let's not call honest comrades who disagree with us "wreckers". Especially over such a meaningless issue.
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Why vote Green?
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Why do you need more evidence lmao
They will strip funding if Libertarians or Greens break 5%. That's not a question.
If someone asks me why I support La Riva, I can give an honest answer. That's about it. "Electoral strategizing" is embarrassing when the rules will always change to fuck the working class.
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He does not recognize that the existing state must be crushed for any political change to happen. That's a huge misunderstanding of reality.
Correct. It is not useful propaganda. Everyone knows politics is rigged.
From what I've seen this year, PSL has done significantly more to radicalize the working class than Greens. I have seen literally nothing from the Greens.
They are just a bourgeois democratic party. All they do is run elections. The working class needs mass popular politics to create change. The Greens are not serious about building that. They are, at best, not helpful.
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What part of "I'm voting for La Riva because she's the only one whose politics I support" do you not understand?
I never said that we're going to "crush the state" by voting. I said that I do not agree with Howie's politics. And I'm not going to make up some lie about why I support him.
I literally never said this.
Why, exactly, should I vote for Greens? You never gave an answer to this that was convincing. "Well, maybe this time the ruling parties change the rules, people will care" is not convincing.
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How much time do you think voting takes lol.
I'm already voting for a local judge who decriminalized fare evasion on public transit.
And people talk about the election. I've explained to quite a few people in my life my genuine support for La Riva, and I've convinced a few to learn more about the party.
:cope:
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The Green Party has never done anything except run failed candidates every 4 years why would I vote for a party that's shown to be entirely opportunistic and careerist and not inherently based in any real material working class struggle?
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who the fuck says we're protest voting lmao
The libs just want to be heard by their masters 😔
lol and what does it mean for a "green party candidate" to win elections when the party platform is entirely up the air and only now has even been described as socialist in any way? There's not a single green party member in any state or national elected position currently, after the party existing for 20 years. Who is a well known "green party" politician? What has the green party actually done to advance working class struggles? The DSA has only really been active nationally in any serious way over the past 4 years and has already done more and gotten more people into meaningful positions of power than the Green Party.
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this comment gave me a migraine
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typed aneurysm first but then realized id only be so lucky
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to be clear, the green party currently has 130 members holding minor offices, 20 years after their foundation. i kind of doubt they’ve actually had “thousands” of people elected at all but if you have better data that’d be cool to see
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Listening to PSL nerds try to talk down to the Green Party is deeply hilarious. The PSL and the Green Party were founded 3 years apart. The PSL has accomplished fuck all and is on the ballot in 15 states (no one sees your party name if you are a fucking write in), and the Greens have accomplished fuck all and every voter in the country will see their name on the ballot. There is no metric by which the PSL is could be considered more successful.
I'm not even a fucking Green Party person, some of you online PSL nerds are just that deeply fucking annoying and delusional.
ah yes the metric by which you're considered successful is whether your name is on the ballot lol. PSL actually organizes poor working class people, something the green party has never cared about. if i go join the green party in NYC right now what sort of organizing and work are they doing here and what have they done during covid and the protests here in the city? Nothing. A non existent party, amazing.
Which is it, getting on the ballot gets your name out there for more people to see, or getting on the ballot isn't actually important? I can't seem to follow your cope.
the PSL has been advocating and fighting for socialism for years and actually furthering the movement in significant and important ways, the greens barely just started even mentioning it, and also explicitly coming out against "state socialism". i couldnt give a fuck about ballots, the greens do fuck all when it comes down to it, so wtf does it matter that they get these votes if it never translated into anything more than a sparing campaign for climate advocacy? shit Sunrise just got founded and they already blew the fucking Greens out of relevancy in that field.
"I couldn't give a fuck about the ballots, that's why I made this post about the PSL being on the ballot."
i dont give a fuck about the ballots in terms of using that as the metric to an org being successful or not. "There is no metric by which the PSL is could be considered more successful." 🙄
"Look at all these states where PSL is on the ballot!" to "Actually it's not that important, fuck being on the ballot..."
You keep talking like I'm supposed to judge the PSL by what's in their fucking heart. Intentions don't matter. The current 100+ Greens that hold local dog catcher and chairman of the annual hot dog parade committee hold and exercise more power than the PSL has in its entire history. I'm not gonna be lectured on the superiority of a fucking party that ran Roseanne Barr for president.
You're a fucking idiot if you think the green party holding bullshit positions in small cities in random places means anything. The PSL literally runs radical tenants unions that are capable of staging rent strikes. They've shown in the BLM protests that they're able to lead people to break the law in protest. There is no current or former Green Party member who could rouse a crowd of thousands like Eugene Puryear did in Philly (no official count but it looked bigger than most Bernie rallies). They don't have state power but they have people power. That's something you need to understand if you want Socialism.
Literally the two Green Party candidates who are Chair and a Commisioner of the Rent Stabilization Board in Berkeley, CA have more power to effect the lives of renter's than the like 50 tenants unions the PSL has organized in its history.
The PSL doesn't have "people power". If they had people power, I wouldn't be looking at a map where they are only on the ballot in 13 states, when the primmary requirement for getting on the ballot is getting people to sign a petition. People didn't show up the that rally in Philadelphia because Eugene Puryear and the PSL were involved, they showed up because it was a BLM rally in a diverse, left-leaning city in the middle of one of the largest protest movements against racism in this country's history. Don't confuse doing entryism with having power. No one was calling that rally the "PSL rally".
While we are on the topic of Eugene Puryear, remind me, which party did he run under in DC, in between his two attempts to be PSL VP candidate?
Thanks for posting some evidence that the Greens are helpful to the working class.
Which ones are green? https://www.cityofberkeley.info/Rent_Stabilization_Board/Home/Meet/Contact_the_Board.aspx
This site says the chair is a democrat: https://votersedge.org/ca/en/election/2020-03-03/alameda-county/member-democratic-party-county-central-committee-assembly-district-15-alameda-portion/paola-laverde
https://www.gp.org/officeholders
Thanks. Looks like they didn't remove the people who have expired terms.
Actually Greens are missing from a lot of ballots this year. Wisconsin and Pennsylvania aren't the only ones. They just didn't bother to collect signatures
I'm referencing more that you can usually find a Green candidate on the ballot in every state, and not necessarily the presidential election.
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Again, people voting for La Riva objectively helps PSL get bigger. I understand that you're more invested in making a scene for the libs in hopes that they will notice you, but personally I don't think that will ever lead to anything.
If you think the PSL wants to be a larger party, you don't know much about the PSL. It takes years and countless people vouching for you to become a member.
I know members and am considering joining myself. It takes about 6 months to become a member, and that's right now when they're flooded with applications. They 100% want to get bigger, but without compromising the quality of cadres. They don't need to have 5,000,000 members, because most membersr in most parties don't do anything. PSL wants to get as many dedicated Marxist-Leninists as possible.
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Muh heckin fundarinos!!! We r gonna get $10mil to spend on TV ads about the GND :ferret:
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