I have only seen national DSA leadership oppose the idea or turn it into a personality contest with Jimmy Dore.
How is that democratic at all?! They are openly contradicting the democratically-decided party line…
What an absolutely shit organization.
Here's the quote:
2019 presents a unique opportunity for the Democratic Socialists for Medicare for All campaign: to be a key player in pushing HR 1384, the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, to a vote in the House of Representatives. DSA is not alone in this work. National Nurses United, along with nearly 30 other national and local unions and progressive organizations are coordinating to take advantage of this moment. Since Bernie Sanders’ presidential run in 2016, single-payer advocates have been successfully turning Medicare for All into a litmus test for politicians. A floor vote in the House will force representatives to finally reveal whether they’re on the side of healthcare profiteers or the side of the working class.
I think it's really cool how millions of people are dying/have died from a pandemic, millions in the US have lost their insurance, and the discourse is now about the political optics of trying to pass healthcare reform, and how on one hand actually it's pointless and you shouldn't even try because it's just symbolic and the other that sure it's symbolic but actually that's good.
Literally your entire country is insane, and the people here are the most guilty.
I’m astounded how they’re so viscerally against a floor vote. I’m apathetic to it changing things drastically but I haven’t heard of anything bad that could happen other than libs might use it against us and ....... ok and? Why are they this pissed off at people demanding things from their politicians? Did we interrupt their brunch?
DSA was founded by a Trotskyist with ties to the US State Department. That is indicative of the degree to which DSA is infiltrated.
Forcing the vote on M4A is the first time DSA has had the power to effectively influence electoral politics, and State Department assets in the DSA are hard at work to prevent that.
This is not a criticism of the DSA rank-and-file. I want that to be clear.
Seems like a stretch to pin the beliefs of a DSA leader half a century ago on the modern DSA.
Yeah literally no one is left from old pre 2000 DSA on the NPC. This entire thread is just full of takes that have no idea how DSA works lol.
Yeah i always get tired trying to explain to people these sort of things. I just checked and actually all current NPC were newly elected in 2019 except one who was first elected in 2017. Dont think any of them have even been in the org since earlier than like 2015
As a founder, he advocated for the exclusion of communists in the charter for the Students of a Democratic Society & in the DSA.
He has had an incredibly close political career to LBJ & Ted Kennedy, and used his political career to redirected Left-wing and labor politics into the Democratic Party.
In general, his actions were consistent with the behavior of State Department infiltration into Left-wing organizing.
This doesn't make me think it's a good idea, it just makes me think the DSA is also a bunch of libs.
EDIT: I take it back. Apparently the DSA plan was to actually have an organized movement that could exert pressure before they tried to force a vote. You know, so that they had actual leverage. Unlike the libs behind #ForcetheVote, that's actually a better plan.
Yeah, this makes me think less of DSA leadership, but it doesn't make me think any more of forcing a vote that is guaranteed not to pass. It's certainly nothing worth tearing anyone down over.
Like, we just had the House pass a bill on decriminalizing marijuana. That actually passed, and the benefits were marginal. It's not going to get us federally decriminalized marijuana anytime soon.
No, it makes me think less of the DSA for thinking that forcing a floor vote will do anything. That's the lib shit I'm talking about. The Spectacle won't create a socialist movement. The left has been doing the same "Oh, were going expose them and then everyone will know the truth" for decades and it doesn't work. Knowledge isn't power and the truth won't set you free.
I really don't understand this perspective.
If M4A was going to be voted on, it'd give socialists any opportunity to advocate for M4A in their lives.
Already, this fight for M4A has helped me engage politically with people in my life. My parents and a couple friends have been much more receptive to M4A since the pandemic started.
People need healthcare, regardless of the Congressional agenda. If you are only able to effectively organize based on whether or not something is going to get a vote in Congress, that's a reflection on you.
People want a concrete political project to support.
The conversation around M4A was much more lively in political organizations, unions, and in my personal life during the Democratic Primary. That is because there was a national political project advocating for M4A immediately.
And where is that concrete political project now? Where are the political organizations, unions, and presidential campaigns?
They don't exist and/or aren't organized and coordinated enough to do anything that would materially impact the world in this fight. And instead of starting there, with the unsexy work of building the foundation necessary to have the fight, the people so invested in pushing this have adopted a Field of Dreams strategy wherein "If we struggle, they will come," despite decades of evidence that jumping to the end and having the fight before you have the proverbial army doesn't work.
They don’t exist and/or aren’t organized and coordinated enough to do anything that would materially impact the world in this fight.
The purpose of organizing to turn unorganized mass discontent into organized political action. The demand for M4A immediately has been wildly popular within the progressive base. But the progressive institutions are opposed to the tactic.
Organizers who are willing to listen to and learn from the people are working to provide this unorganized mass a political organization to advocate for their needs.
The Slack channel is up to 2,000 people in it after a couple days. It’s more active than any other political organizing space I am in right now.
Yes, of course, M4A is so widely popular with Americans and they are so organized in that effort that...wait, who won the Democratic primary? I can't remember, was it the guy whose campaign was centered around M4A?
Let me know when you get Joe Biden to join your Slack channel, because it ain't going to accomplish shit otherwise. It will be dead in a month when the posters and youtubers behind it abandon it a month from now and move on to something that gets better engagement
Let me know when you get Joe Biden to join your Slack channel, because it ain’t going to accomplish shit otherwise.
"The end goal of my organizing is to lead the Democratic Party"
Stop telling on yourself. It's embarrassing.
It will be dead in a month when the posters and youtubers behind it abandon it a month from now and move on to something that gets better engagement
The channel, maybe. It depends on how people to continue to utilize it. I've made some pretty useful political connections in this channel I plan to keep.
Lmao, make up your fucking mind. Do you want to force M4A through the government or not? How infested are you with brainworms? You aren't going to organize anything close to a movement on that Slack. Now you are somehow planning on getting M4A passed without Joe Biden signing it. Amazing
The channel, maybe. It depends on how people to continue to utilize it. I’ve made some pretty useful political connections in this channel I plan to keep.
Careerist Alert
Lmao, make up your fucking mind. Do you want to force M4A through the government or not?
I want to work with people who are struggling for the progressive issue of getting people health care during a pandemic.
I do not expect this strategy will succeed. I don't expect health care will be guaranteed to people until there is a socialist revolution here.
I didn't expect the Bernie campaign would get him elected. I didn't expect the BLM protests to overthrow the police states across this country. I engaged with these struggle to meet progressive-minded people, and guide them towards political strategies which have been proven to work.
Careerist Alert
I don't get paid for this shit you fucking dweeb. I work full-time. If building political power is too "careerist" for you, stop positioning yourself as someone worth working with. Just admit Left-wing politics is a counter-culture for you.
I want to work with people who are struggling for the progressive issue of getting people health care during a pandemic.
Well then you should go work with some labor organizers, because you aren't going to meet anyone who can actually achieve anything on on that Slack, just more posters.
I don't expect health care will be guaranteed to people until there is a socialist revolution here.
Lmao, yeah, because all of the social democratic countries that have actual universal healthcare had successful socialist revolutions. This is sentence is truly emblematic of the problems with this movement. You literally romaticize and dream of defeat before you have even started the task. Truly the mark of a rudderless "movement" of posters.
I don't get paid for this shit you fucking dweeb. I work full-time. If building political power is too "careerist" for you, stop positioning yourself as someone worth working with.
"Excuse me, dont't get mad at me that I'm networking on Slack instead of doing something useful."
Just admit Left-wing politics is a counter-culture for you.
Please, tell me more about how you romanticize the defeat of this movement, and tellme again which of us views this as a cultural engagement.
Well then you should go work with some labor organizers
I am. Both before and after this issue.
you aren’t going to meet anyone who can actually achieve anything on on that Slack
There are literal union organizers on the Slack lol
I don't understand your desire to infantilize people trying to advocate for health care in a pandemic.
Lmao, yeah, because all of the social democratic countries that have actual universal healthcare had successful socialist revolutions.
They had successful socialist revolutions within 500 miles of their borders. If Mexico and Canada become the next Soviet bloc, I'll revise my statement.
Excuse me, dont’t get mad at me that I’m networking on Slack instead of doing something useful
Coordinating with progressive-minded people is actually not useful. Again, this isn't a counter-culture.
There are literal union organizers on the Slack lol
Oh damn, y'all got the Burgerville guys?
They had successful socialist revolutions within 500 miles of their borders. If Mexico and Canada become the next Soviet bloc, I’ll revise my statement.
I'm looking on a map, but I can't seem to find the socialist revolution that happened withing 500 miles of the 90% of Canadians that live withing 100 miles of the US border. Was there one in Greenland? I guess that would explain how Iceland has universal healthcare as well. Ireland and the UK are coming up a bit tricky to explain, though.
Coordinating with people more interested in drama than organizing is actually not useful. Again, this isn’t a counter-culture.
There it is, now you got it.
Oh damn, y’all got the Burgerville guys?
Condescending to workers is always the end-game for Liberals 🤡
Lol more bad faith argumentation from the #ForcetheVote crowd, who are unwilling to admit they have no power and no actual plan to build it.
Oh damn, y’all got the Burgerville guys?
more bad faith argumentation
Ah yes, I'm the one acting in bad faith lol
You have been a condescending prick this entire thread.
You hate the unruly masses desperately trying to get basic access to health care during a pandemic. That has been your response to every comment. You will just condescend to these people. They are just a "crowd" with "no actual plan."
It's crazy how the right-wing jobs against Bernie now get regurgitated uncritically. It is astounding to see.
You have literally been condescending to every person in this thread who dares point out how this strategy is empty liberalism, and you deserve nothing but condescendion in return.
You hate the unruly masses desperately trying to get basic access to health care during a pandemic.
No, I hate college educated liberals like you, who are more interested in pumping up their followers on Twitter and showing how revolutionary you are through the discourse than actually doing anything to actually build power. Because you just want to post on the fucking internet about how revolutionary you are and yell at anyone who dares point our the most obvious flaws in your "plans", material circumstances be damned! You and the libs like you couldn't organize a fucking bake sale. That's why you can't get the working class to buy into any of your horrible strategies: you are incapable of delivering even the meagerest of material victories for them, so instead you set your eyes on goals you openly tell them are unachievable, and expect them to show up with you and bask in beautiful defeat.
The purpose of organizing to turn unorganized mass discontent into organized political action. The demand for M4A immediately has been wildly popular within the progressive base. But the progressive institutions are opposed to the tactic.
Organizers who are willing to listen to and learn from the people are working to provide this unorganized mass a political organization to advocate for their needs.
The Slack channel is up to 2,000 people in it after a couple days. It’s more active than any other political organizing space I am in right now.
My first comment in this thread. I don't see anything particularly condescending here. I want to work with people who want to fight for health care during a pandemic.
Let me know when you get Joe Biden to join your Slack channel, because it ain’t going to accomplish shit otherwise.
Your response to me.
I can read. You have been a condescending prick from the beginning.
You are projecting a lot of weird hang-ups you have onto me. It's weird. Your rant here is embarrassing.
You're begging me to dox my political and labor work to demonstrate that normal people support an unequivocal demand for health care during a pandemic. I can't think of any other reason to say slanderous shit about me.
I have only seen national DSA leadership oppose the idea or turn it into a personality contest with Jimmy Dore.
How is that democratic at all?! They are openly contradicting the democratically-decided party line…
What an absolutely shit organization.
Your actual first condescending comment in the thread, wherein you purposely misrepresent the strategy that had been put forward, in which the plan to force the vote came at the end of the strategy after the power necessary to actually leverage it had been built, not jump right to the vote and hope that a movement would magically coalesce around it like a cargo cult.
You are projecting a lot of weird hang-ups you have onto me.
Lol, no, I'm not the ultra here. I'm the one interested in building actual working class power and helping deliver real concrete gains for the working class. And I know from my life that takes a lot of dirty, boring, unsexy work that people like you aren't willing to do.
You’re begging me to dox my political and labor work
Lmao, get over yourself. You are trying to run a influence op on the Democratic party. You don't do anything worth knowing about.
that normal people support an unequivocal demand for health care during a pandemic
Stop trying to equate this with the idea that they support your or believe in your because of it.
Your actual first condescending comment in the thread, wherein you purposely misrepresent the strategy that had been put forward, in which the plan to force the vote came at the end of the strategy after the power necessary to actually leverage it had been built
I'm calling out people who are openly contradicting a political line the DSA decided on in 2019. This was not "after a campaign." The forced vote is clearly mentioned in the introduction, with no prerequisites. The only change is that DSA-affiliates can force a M4A vote now.
I'm not condescending here. I'm openly voicing my disdain for the unaccountability in DSA.
I’m the one interested in building actual working class power and helping deliver real concrete gains for the working class . And I know from my life that takes a lot of dirty, boring, unsexy work that people like you aren’t willing to do.
Somehow demanding that Congress provide people health care in a pandemic is contradictory with any other type of organizing?
Lmao, get over yourself. You are trying to run a influence op on the Democratic party. You don’t do anything worth knowing about.
How is this an influence op for Democrats? It is rejected by every Democrat besides Lee Carter.
Also, if you hate anything that may look like an "influence op for Democrats", I'm really curious what your involvement in the labor movement looks like. 90% of labor unions would be beyond the pale.
Stop trying to equate this with the idea that they support your or believe in your because of it.
Meanwhile you post self-flagellating garbage like "[I'm] building actual working class power and helping deliver real concrete gains for the working class." You can do that while advocating people get health care during a pandemic.
This entire situation has been so jarring.
I'm saying the exact same things DSA & the DSA-affiliates in Congress were saying six months ago. The only thing that has changed is that the DSA-affiliates have the political power to force a vote on M4A.
I'm getting major 2008 vibes these days, when DSA gave cover for Obama.
I’m getting major 2008 vibes these days, when DSA gave cover for Obama.
I didn't know they did that, seeing what's happening, that's not very promising.
I do want to make the nuance that a lot of people in DSA seem to be supporting this, and DSA before and after Bernie's 2016 run is a different organisation.
Anyway, I made my initial comment because I thought it was unfair that you got so much vitriol for simply defending an idea that I thought that was already accepted on the left.
I do want to make the nuance that a lot of people in DSA seem to be supporting this, and DSA before and after Bernie’s 2016 run is a different organisation.
Yeah, it's the DSA-affiliates in elected office, news outlets like Jacobin, and progressive think tanks have had a lot of influence setting the narrative.
The rank-and-file has either been supportive or misinformed. Most people were unaware that AOC & DSA have advocated a floor vote for years.
I made my initial comment because I thought it was unfair that you got so much vitriol for simply defending an idea that I thought that was already accepted on the left.
I appreciate it.
I hate college educated liberals like you, who are more interested in pumping up their followers on Twitter and showing how revolutionary you are through the discourse than actually doing anything to actually build power.
Almost everyone on this site is a comrade in one form or another. There's no reason to say such condescending things towards people you disagree with here. Make your critiques in a constructive manner instead of making personal attacks on people.
You weren't talking to me, I was just abhorred by the contempt you show for comrades you disagree with.
Here's a little bit of Mao for you, from "combat liberalism ":
"To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. Is a fifth type [of liberalism]."
Great, no go yell and tweet that at all the people like OP who are calling everyone who disagree with their dumb strategy traitors to the working class. I was nice about it two weeks ago and explained why this is a bad strategy. I'm not being nice anymore to them, or to people like you who try to defend them when there is an actual event unfolding right now showing that their strategy is ineffective.
Yes, of course, M4A is so widely popular with Americans and they are so organized in that effort that…wait, who won the Democratic primary?
Because people wanted to get "Cheeto mussolini" out of the white house and voted on the basis of electability. The circumstances are different now.
This specific statement sounds like you have no believe whatsoever in the capacity of the US working class to be engaged in a struggle to improve their material conditions, and that is, in all earnesty, a form of liberalism.
No, I believe that the working class has the capacity to engage in struggle to improve their material conditions. What I don't believe is that people like you or the person I was responding to are in any way capable or organizing them to that end.
What I don’t believe is that people like you or the person I was responding to are in any way capable or organizing them to that end.
Ad hominem attacks, very nice.
Hey, hi, how do you propose getting people healthcare in the immediate future without any sort of congressional vote?
Hey, hi, how do you propose getting a vote to pass when the strongest tool you have is tweeting?
lib shit is sitting there and not exercising your influence. Forcing a vote lets the left see who's against med4all, and who needs to be primaried.
No it doesn't. We already fucking did this with all the cosponsors on the M4A bill. We just did it again with the House voting for $2K. It's not getting passed in the Senate and it takes 11 of 18 Blue Dogs to kill it in the House. In the time that you could have actually been working on something useful with power behind it, we will have instead put a bunch of effort into tearing each other apart over a meaningless gesture. When Nancy Pelosi votes for M4A because she can knowing it won't pass, what are you going to say when the libs say "Uh, actually, Pelosi is a progressive sweaty, she voted for M4A"?
Without Jimmy Dore, there would be no national conversation on advancing M4A right now. It would all be left to local organizations and advocacy.
A national conversation helps bolster local organizing, and most people aren't weirdly obsessed with media personalities. Re: Bernie Sanders campaign.
The tactics to distract from forcing the vote on M4A have been the same tactics utilized to distract from Bernie's socialist platform.
This is why you need a party
I agree. This is a great opportunity to teach people why parties are useful.
Entryists/potential allies among the Dems need to have a united front to have any leverage at all and the fact that they’re already losing committee positions means that Dem leadership does not think they have the capacity to do so.
I agree. The people need to demand these progressive politicians operate as a united front, advocating for the immediate needs of working people.
There are other factors that disrupt that united front, but leftists yelling at each other on the internet, which is absolutely the discourse, does nothing but ensure a split.
If yelling at people online will end Leftist organizing, then we need to give up. It is impossible to advocate a socialist agenda in the US without the State Department working to disrupt it at every opportunity.
I don’t see any parties ready to scoop up the disappointed libs
The people who have been leading the force the vote effort have shown interest in continuing this work, and they have a decent outreach. I don't think an existing party is necessary these people to continue organizing.
I'd argue communist parties should be offering these people guidance, rather than pooh-poohing their political experiment, but I am not the leader of a communist party.
Doing nothing would be better even though you still probably wouldn’t see any hardball.
I disagree. Political struggles which prove the need for a workers party are good, even if the workers party does not exist to fill that space yet.
This entire activity is a false catharsis that will lead to rudderless disappointment.
I've heard this said about every Left-wing project - anti-racist protests, the Bernie campaign, etc. In my experience, this is just nihilistic. People tend to be more engaged after political struggles.
Any org they continue with will have to resemble a party.
Yes. At the very least, there must be democratic organs, and the expectation that members carry out the political line.
It will have to work to elect opponents of those who are against M4A and to elect those for it and work at multiple levels to do so.
Maybe. Those are some tactics available.
I haven’t seen any communist party statements on this push at all. PSL is the only one with any national recognition imo and they haven’t said anything so far as I can tell
The PSL has a released statement which has offered support for the advocacy of a socialist program within the Democratic Party. Although, there's been no comment from the Central Committee on this moment in particular. The timing has been really unfortunate given the holiday.
Personally, all I see is leftists shitting on each other and that this is where disappointment and anger will go.
I'm going to vent on an anonymous forum about the DSA contradicting their platform. That isn't organizing.
What organizing spaces are you in the forcing the vote? Are you just on Twitter and here? I don't really trust your perspective on this issue given the way you have talked about it.
The timing is a very big part of why this whole thing is counterproductive.
How is seizing on a moment "counterproductive." This political tactic was discovered 12 days ago. That shouldn't change peoples' support for an obviously progressive political issue.
I don’t know what you mean but I’m in a few socialist orgs that I’ll avoid mentioning to avoid even slight doxxing. Keep opsec up, up, up!
I mean, what are the political organizations through which you are interacting with Force the Vote? Or is your understanding of the issue limited to consuming Leftist theater?
Okay, so what in your experience leads you to believe that the personally dismissive nature of this discourse (which you’re getting close to, now) leads you to believe that its guaranteed failure will find a different outlet?
I do not care about "the discourse." I care about how political organizations are engaging with an opportunity to get a floor vote for M4A in the next couple months.
Speaker / minority leader selection is a scheduled event.
The margins in the House have been known since mid-December. This tactic makes no sense unless the DSA-affilates can without their vote to further their org's strategy. Re: "This political tactic was discovered 12 days ago", in mid-December.
I’m not attempting to force the vote at this particular moment at all because of the reasons I’ve already given…
Then I don't understand the point you are making. You are observing political theater. You are not trying to engage with this effort. It doesn't sound like you disagree with this characterization.
Remember how I said the contribution of this discourse was pointless, personally dismissive infighting?
Then stop contributing to "the discourse" lol
Determine the degree to which you feel this is a political opportunity, then act accordingly.
The discourse is the entirety of this tactic. It is atomized yelling on the internet.
No it literally is not.
There are demonstrations planned. There are people reaching out to constituents, elected officials, and various political organizations to make use of this moment. You can disagree with these tactics, but people are putting in work.
Again, you are only engaging with the online discourse, and you are projecting.
Horse trading over speaker / monitory leader happens every single term and Dore et al were talking about this in late November.
People are responding to the fact that, in mid-December, an unlikely situation occurred - the Speaker margin is such that DSA-affiliates can publicly extract concessions. That, and the DSA-affiliates have no intention of extracting concessions.
I support people in their effort to demand that DSA-affiliates extract concessions from Pelosi by publicly withholding their vote for her.
That opportunity doesn’t exist because this tactic ensured its own failure.
The Bernie campaign was an ensured failure and it created an opportunity for political organizing. These are not mutually exclusive.
I'm referring to the party's line on the Sanders campaign, which is from March.
Ah. I understood that article to support the people demanding a socialist agenda, even when those calls come from within the Democratic Party. The Bernie campaign was one example of that. I'll need to reread it.
I don’t know how that statement relates to this Dore vs AOC thing though. The situation is VERY different, mainly that Sanders captured the support of the masses for a while, yet AOC has not
I don't know what you mean by the "Dore vs AOC thing." A public spat between a talk radio host and a politician isn't comparable to the Bernie campaign.
I'm referring to a campaign to force the government to pass M4A during the pandemic, which has seen mass support and fledgling organization form around it in the past week.
I guess I don't see this as an esoteric debate within the Democratic Party. I've talked to many in the Force the Vote Slack who've said M4A is their only hope right now. It reminds me a lot of the Bernie campaign in that sense.
I thought the force the vote thing exclusively came from that spat between those two personalities
There has been a massive effort to portray it this way.
It was launched into the mainstream by AOC responding on Twitter to the demand. Jimmy Dore has been on a crusade to calling out a bunch of bullshit in the DSA/Jacobin world.
But amidst that, I'm seeing people funnel into organizing spaces at a surprising rate. The Slack channel at this website has been up for a few days, and it has 1,500 members now.
Maybe national will release a statement, idk, it depends on how this pans out
I'm an optimist. I'm hopeful that the people will turn this into a real campaign. And it's a campaign that recognizes the Democratic Party as an obstacle, which helps.
You won’t find many Bernie sympathizers in the PSL
Yeah, Bernie deserves no sympathy. His supporters do.
I'm a candidate. I have been keeping tabs on this campaign and sharing what I see with my branch.
Since thats me in the tweet i'll respond by saying that this whole discourse is just dumb at this point, but DSA org wide decisions do not get made on twitter, theres people in DSA advocating for this and discussing it through the correct channels. Theres something to be said of applying this sort of pressure and putting this in public discourse, but obviously thats not a means to an end, which is why we advocate for building actual meaningful working class collective power. Whether supporting this specific thing is relevant or not is down to the people who have actually been doing the work on it, not any one person shouting on twitter. The point is that legislators might not be interested in doing this as there are better things to be gained from other means, thats not something anyone can control. I don't know whether its ultimately good or not but i dont think it hurts when tied into larger movement organizing. The problem is all of these Jimmy Dore fans and everyone else are fucking annoying as shit and not actually supporting any real organizing efforts and continually dismissing how to effectively incorporate things into a real strategy, and just going out of their way to declare everyone not on their side a traitor. Which is whatever thats just the way the internet is, but at the end of the day this whole thing is not that important, and "pressuring politicians" is a form of liberalism and not how you build real power, but imo theres no reason to not support a floor vote itself if it makes sense to do so.
Whether supporting this specific thing is relevant or not is down to the people who have actually been doing the work on it, not any one person shouting on twitter.
From the conversations I've had with DSA affiliates, they were not consulting this document to determine their political line. It has been a great help to bring this up.
It is important to note that has been an issue the Left has wanted for awhile. Now we have the political power to do it.
Well i know m4a organizers are advocating for it to the npc, not sure on details but thats internal stuff. I dont think theres anything specifically important about this whole thing, and it certainly doesnt warrant anyone getting angry at each other over dumb shit. Im not against it but i can understand why people wouldnt want to actually go this route, tho i think even if DSA came out in full support tomorrow it still won't happen. People are acting like its literally the end of the world. You cant be saying that electoralism isnt how you win and then turn around and say actually we need these politicians to do this thing or else everything is over.
I dont think theres anything specifically important about this whole thing, and it certainly doesnt warrant anyone getting angry at each other
This has been the largest mass struggle for health care since the Bernie campaign. We are in the middle of a pandemic. It is a strategic mistake to say there's nothing important about this moment.
The conversation in the socialist movement must be "how do we engage the masses who turned out for Bernie". Advocating for the immediate implementation of a popular, socialist platform is a valid strategy to this end.
But you arent advocating for that and tweeting hashtags wont get you that, nor will a failed vote. Forcing a failed vote makes sense in the context of a few things, including having the legislators to want to go along with it (which we very well might not) and having an organized movement to apply real public pressure (which we dont currently but could) and it can bring things into the public eye which might incline people to get involved in movement organizing, which is what actually matters, but it might also just turn out to be struck down through some sort of procedural way and be over in a day and without any room for floor debates and then you're not gaining anything but embarrassment. This only really works if the entire CPC is behind it and we have unions, organizers, and a mass movement to go along. Otherwise the vote wont happen, and you wont gain anything from it if it does. This is just liberalism, people want shortcuts instead of wanting to do the real work necessary to build a real mass movement. Like I said I dont think theres any harm to dsa supporting it so idk why ppl are so against it, and if it plays out right it could do well to heighten these apparent contradictions and build up the movement, but these are real issues that need to be weighed on that people are casually dismissing thinking they've found some sort of secret strategy or something.
But you arent advocating for that
??? That is exactly what people are advocating for, M4A immediately. The vote is one tactic to that end.
Forcing a failed vote makes sense in the context of a few things
The most important factor is that it can demonstrate to more people that the existing bourgeois democracy is fundamentally incapable of addressing the contradictions in today's society. M4A needs to happen now, but it won't.
We need to prove to the masses that it won't happen, and we need to replace our state with one that will.
The rest of your post does a great job highlighting how easy it is to teach people the futility of this project. We need to work with the people and teach them this information.
There is a faction of the progressive media pushing people into action. I have not seen this happen since the Bernie. That should not be opposed.
Teaching people things is great, but like I said just saying "vote for m4a" isn't gonna make that happen when we dont have any way to exert power over politicians. If it does happen it could be good, but I just dont think it will happen, thats why i dont think this is all that important. I agree it shouldnt be opposed cause theres no reason to waste energy opposing something like this unless i'm really missing something that could potentially actually backfire and make things worse, but I dont see how that would happen, tho again im not fully familiar with how a vote or the whole actual process itself would work, but I just dont think the politicians will think its worthwhile. Maybe the whole FTV thing itself failing should demonstrate to people the futility of tying your movement building around just demanding things from politicians?
Teaching people things is great, but like I said just saying “vote for m4a” isn’t gonna make that happen when we dont have any way to exert power over politicians.
The current effort is to exert power over progressive politicians over something they can achieve by themselves - a floor vote on M4A.
If we cannot get progressive politicians to push for a political tactic in DSA's M4A strategy, that is important information for the socialist movement.
Maybe the whole FTV thing itself failing should demonstrate to people the futility of tying your movement building around just demanding things from politicians?
I am advocating this in every organizing space I can find on forcing the vote. Pressuring politicians is a tactic we can use right now. We must use it, and also discuss the next set of tactics once this tactic has run its course.
Has “Democratic centralism” ever solved any issue? Has Democratic centralism ever made any issue not worse?
This place is not where I expect to see supporters of Democratic centralism!
Give examples?
No, it really is not.
This discourse has been exposing a lot of corruption & self-serving behavior in Left-wing organizations.
It's very similar to the Bernie campaign. Anyone with a brain understand this isn't a revolution, but it's an opportunity to struggle with people.
Let me provide additional commentary: Forcing the vote is pointless, shitting on people for wanting to force is pointless, thinking that forcing the vote does something is wrong, thinking that forcing the vote would make you lose political capital is wrong. I don't care about either camps, time and energy spent on this is way disproportionate to its importance(including this comment). We're powerless and try to feel control by doing shit like this(trying to force a meaningless but also harmless vote or trying to block it)
This seems to be the same criticism that some had with the Bernie campaign. "The Democratic Party will never allow someone with Bernie's politics, so it is pointless to pursue it."
I disagree with this perspective. Rallying around mass popular issues have been the best tool for building the socialist movement in the US. Socialists should engage in any mass struggle for health care. Forcing the vote for M4A has been the first mass struggle for health care since the Bernie campaign.
This seems to be the same criticism that some had with the Bernie campaign. “The Democratic Party will never allow someone with Bernie’s politics, so it is pointless to pursue it.”
Bernie in the primaries gives him a platform that he wouldn't get otherwise where he can advocate for issues.
This vote does nothing of sort. Representatives don't gain a better platform on the congress floor. M4A advocates(and libs who know it'll fail and will support it to get progressive cred) will talk for it on the senate floor, maybe get a few snippets for ads, and then the vote will fail spectacularly. AOC saying "We need M4A" on twitter has a better reach than that. Vote doesn't have to pass to have a point, but it doesn't accomplish something.
Forcing the vote for M4A has been the first mass struggle for health care since the Bernie campaign.
I think this is confusing articles by online leftists for a mass struggle. I'm seeing this coming more from some in leftist media and less from people on the ground.
I'm in a Slack channel with like, 2,000 people working to carry out the force for a M4A vote.
The national strategy that has been discussed is continuing this project regardless of the results.
I'd consider that pretty "on the ground", especially when the progressive political machine surrounding the DSA-affiliates in Congress has generally opposed this tactic.
We didn't even gain some new information about anything:
BJG and Dore like to constantly show where they stand.
AOC doesn't want to explicitly upset party leadership while pushing her socdem reforms.
DSA leadership think they have (non-existant)political capital that they can lose and somehow meaningfully push for their agenda through Democrats.
None of this is new info.
If you look at the entire document, the floor vote comes only as brief aside in the overall establishment of local union based pressure campaigns that can do the necessary work to get the people who don't vote yes out. The section after that vote mention in the introduction explicitly talks about the coalition politics as a prerequisite to a floor vote because only those coalition campaigns can pressure, which is not exactly what is being advocated by #ForceTheVote. The floor vote is a tool that can only be effectively used if coalitions are ready to go. That is why the NPC members who have voiced opposition to the current FTV measures have the opposition they have.
How does one get the effective floor vote mentioned in the introduction, do the organizing work the rest of the document is about (and if that doesn't work, the FTV stuff sure as hell isn't gonna work either).
The section before that vote section explicitly talks about the coalition politics as a prerequisite to a floor vote,
The discussion of a floor vote only appears in the introduction, not in any of the following sections. The introduction highlights that it is a tactic which can be used to expose house members in 2019.
It is now 2021. If that is no longer the case, they should explain how their organization has regressed in the past two years. 2019 DSA viewed themselves capable of utilizing a failed M4A floor vote.
which is not exactly what is being advocated by #ForceTheVote
Yes it is. There are countless organizations which support M4A, and a (supposedly) a significant portion of Democrats. The force the vote groups I've seen have been working on outreach pretty consistently for the past week.
Sorry, had sections mixed up. The rest of points stand. The floor vote in the context of that document comes as the end result of a huge pressure campaign that has built the necessary coalitions to carry it out. It does not come before. You are looking at this issue completely backwards. There was no regression, rather the coalition based pressure campaigns moving to a 2019 vote did not progress to a reasonable level. They got stuck. Now why was there not sufficient pressure to generate the floor vote? In my opinion the M4A organizers in DSA were far too optimistic about the progress that could be made in one year. I mean the goal of that floor vote was to use as a cudgel in the 2020 primaries but there was not enough pressure, just like there is not enough now. It was and is (as the campaign for M4A is ongoing) up to individual chapters how much resources to put into the M4A campaign, and many chapters chose to devote resources to other campaigns, such as police abolition or rent strikes and other covid issues. Personally I would argue the litmus test floor vote is not useful at all and the coalitions that continue to be built continue to put their focus on gaining co-sponsors and DSA members in the house should not be voting for any house leader at all.
Also you should note that this document is not endorsed by DSA as an organization in a binding sense. The DSA Medicare for All campaign was authorized at the convention to make an overall campaign plan, and the people authorized drafted that document and were given resources to help individual chapters run their section the campaign. It does not represent the opinions of the NPC, who were not even elected when this was drafted. It does not represent the collective beliefs of the chapters, or the at large members.
There was no regression, rather the coalition based pressure campaigns moving to a 2019 vote did not progress to a reasonable level. They got stuck.
Okay, they were unable to generate a floor vote in 2019.
Now why was there not sufficient pressure to generate the floor vote?
There are enough DSA members in the House to generate a floor vote by withholding their vote for Pelosi. They are no longer stuck.
It was and is (as the campaign for M4A is ongoing) up to individual chapters how much resources to put into the M4A campaign
What resources are you talking about? The DSA-affiliates in the House should be carrying out an agreed upon M4A strategy. The total labor invested in this project should only be the negotiation time between DSA-affiliates in the House & Nancy Pelosi.
Also you should note that this document is not endorsed by DSA as an organization in a binding sense. The DSA Medicare for All campaign was authorized at the convention to make an overall campaign plan.
The DSA M4A campaign strategy - authorized at the DSA national convention - is not binding on DSA members? There's no DSA campaign strategy for M4A. It is all left personal whims. That is astounding.
What resources are you talking about?
Cash for signs, flyers, child care for campaign volunteers, organizing training, paying for text banking software etc. Just getting members out pressuring their elected house member and going to every single person in their district and doing the same. Getting local unions to sign on. I'm not talking about just the floor vote here, I'm talking about the overall M4A campaign. Even just on forcing a floor vote, the DSA members in the house don't have the power over Pelosi. Pelosi can just get a few republicans to come over or even just a couple extra dems and all the DSA members in the house can withhold their vote and lose (IMO they should do this anyway, just saying it's not effective for getting a M4A vote without more pressure). For a floor vote to even happen, there needs more pressure in person on dems in the house and that will take more time to organize than there is before the vote, I mean the majority of DSA members are not even aware this debate is happening right now. Furthermore, even if the floor vote happens, where does that leave us? There's no evidence voters would punish their officials in a primary that is two years away when most of the officials that say no already tell their voters that to their faces. All we could do is go back to doing what we are already doing of building coalition campaigns to get more yes votes that are backed by credible primary threats and prepare (which is already happening) for the primary fights to come.
Also just to be more clear, I am not anti-floor vote. I think it basically doesn't matter and the DSA elected members of the house should be voting no on literally every speaker. However, the M4A strategy as laid out by DSA organizers is still imo the best thing to keep on doing.
The DSA M4A campaign strategy - authorized at the DSA national convention - is not binding on DSA members? There’s no DSA campaign strategy for M4A. It is all left personal whims. That is astounding.
It's not personal whims, the chapter delegates voted for the creation of the M4A campaign, and agreed to allocate resources for its construction and execution. The fact that local chapters have so much autonomy is not astounding, it's literally the only way a decentralized organization like DSA can run. The chapters have to have large amounts of autonomy. They get to decide what happens to most of their dues, they have to do the work of getting members to go out and campaign, get members into the local unions, etc. There's limits, a chapter can't disparage M4A and not expect to be reprimanded but the power of the campaign in any area lies in the individual chapter because the individual chapter knows how best to organize for their conditions and they organize the bodies that have to go out and do the hard work. DSA is not a top down organization. There's no other way for it to work, I don't know what else you expect. DSA, nor any other left group in the US, is in any position to start enforcing national unity. They have no power to do so, and significant portions of the organization are explicitly against being forced to do so beyond the current measures. DSA national serves to help chapters get a political line, get campaigns to do, get training for those campaigns, and coordinate communication between local chapters but the locals have all the power in allocating their resources.
Why would it even matter if the president who would sign off on it any has explicitly said he is opposed and doesn’t support m4a?
In a normal country it would expose the inherent contradictions of capitalism, but America is uniquely stupid so it probably wouldn't work at all.
Both Georgia Senate races have seen a 2% swing towards Democrats since McConnell vetoed the $2,000 checks.
There is a chance the Democrats have a monopoly on power.
Socialists should demand M4A immediately. We do not want to be associated with the Democratic Party unilaterally denying the People health care in a pandemic.
Stop with the American Exceptionalism.
American socialists need to stop making excuses for their dogshit organizing tactics.
Ick, I haven't been paying attention to national's bullshit, but I might have to now. I might be getting laid off soon (since my employer lied about keeping me on), so why shouldn't I.
It pathetic really. When exactly are they going to come around to getting a vote for M4A on the floor? Once they've taken of the Democratic Party? Yeah, good luck with that.
Source https://twitter.com/GerardDalbon/status/1345101059845468161?s=19
