It's easy to say that it feels like a psyop, but the levels of class reductionism - that is to say - the knee-jerk ridicule of intersectional shit or critical race theory stuff feels highly suspect. Like, you can't say white people are nerds (which they are) in a lot of anti-woke left spaces without harsh rebukes, and it seems really suspect to me. Is there a real fash pipeline in our midst? Are class reductionist white people that sensitive and defensive and... well... white to the point that they can't let go of their privilege even in the context of them being left?
Leftist ideology is not a magic vaccine against racism and certain reactionary ideas. The fact that Strasserites were ever a thing is proof of that.
People brought up in an environment where White Supremacism is prevalent are not suddenly going to drop those ideas entirely when they become sympathetic to leftist ideals. This is especially true if they're never introduced to internationalist leftism, which can be quite rare in many Western leftist circles.
internationalist leftism
Could you give an example of what you mean by this?
Internationalist leftism emphasizes the importance of solidarity between the working classes of all countries across the globe. Think of all the material and political support given by the USSR, PRC, Cuba, etc to anti-colonial struggles in Africa, as well as to economic development afterwards.
It's the antithesis of certain strains of Western leftism where people just want Healthcare, more unions, and better pay, but otherwise tow the State Department line about foreign interventions.
I'm certain there are definitely explicit white supremacists lurking and taking advantage of the rhetorical ground, but I'm pretty sure 95% of these guys are just painfully white dudes from privileged upbringings who like being edgy and contrarian. Also wagering a solid proportion of them are 15.
I get the impression most are drawn towards the arguments of the left, but the thought of them being responsible for the problems of today brings up a reactionary streak for ego self-defense.
I don't think this ideology is stable. The contradictions are too strong. Either they'll fash or eventually grow up.
but the thought of them being responsible for the problems of today brings up a reactionary streak for ego self-defense.
ngl dude, this is kind of lib shit. they aren't responsible for it, the same way Americans largely aren't responsible for the atrocities their country commits. yeah, they might benefit from it, they might even subconsciously reproduce and propagate racist/xenophobic/imperialist propaganda, but to say that they are responsible for it is even antithetical to Marxist thought. it is to argue that single individuals do influence the State, power and culture, when that is obviously not the case. in a bourgeois State policy decisions come top down at best or are structurally decided with no human input at worst.
that is not to say that people have no level of responsibility to do political change, but saying anyone but the bourgeoisie - if you want to be critical you could even argue the left's lack of power is also to blame - is responsible for the present state of things is to fall prey to the ruling narrative that if "everyone did their part" we would somehow live in a utopia, with no regard to the key role economic organization plays into that.speak of the devil lol
they might even subconsciously reproduce and propagate racist/xenophobic/imperialist propaganda
racist things happen because people are racist. people are racist because they grow up in a racist culture. the culture is racist because not enough people break the cycle and examine their own racism, which allows that racism to keep passing from one generation to the next. so yeah, white people all contribute. we're all responsible. i know for a fact i still have white supremacist bullshit kicking around in my subconscious. i've been digging that stuff out of my psyche for years and i still find more of it.
This was my point.
That their aversion to social justice is to avoid moral culpability for the ways in which their actions have furthered forms of bigotry.
Ultimately systems should bear most of the blame, but we cannot ignore the way people subconsciously contribute to it. It is not lib shit to try and root it out.
Sorry for the late response.
I think we're on the same page, but my words gave off a different meaning than I intended.
I'm not talking about them causing the problems of capitalism, imperialism, or the decisions of our corporations and state. Average people absolutely do contribute to white supremacy and other forms of bigotry, whether they know it or not. "Responsible for" was poor word choice.
Even in the absence of capitalism and the inequalities it brings, white supremacy will continue, albeit with much less power. Did homophobia, racism, and sexism dissolve after the formation of the Soviet Union?...no, even if they were better on those issues than many contemporaries.
If we have zero power to affect these social systems, and it's all just capitalism, what harm is there in using slurs every other sentence? Is it lib shit to not use the n-word?
I'm fully aware of the way my past transgressions have made safe for homophobia, racism, and other forms of bigotry to propagate. The acknowledgement of this "responsibility" is what I was referring to as causing their reactionary views.
yes
also most ideologies/movements/philosophies that encourage people to be overly mean and harsh as a form of liberated and politically sharpened communication are gonna lead to people being assholes (and its gonna lead to crypto shit when those ideologies/movements/philosophies attract privileged people whose "politically sharpened commentary" requires them to punch down)
like im not arguing for civility politics but any grown person doing the whole lets trigger the NPC/"facts dont care about your feelings" thing is just sus as person and probably has some communication issues. Like im very marginalized and have had to let privileged people know about themselves but other than that, i care about people's feelings lol and generally dont go into a convo to talk over everyone/ impress people with my ruthless unnuanced and mean language. (This isnt even considering that i might actually be unsafe or criminalized into being a safety risk to the fragile whites if i, a black woman decided to tell the white boys as it is)
a lot of dirtbags just want to be able to curse and their "dirtbagness" seems to be very much in conversation with their usual white upper middle class WASP/ reform white washed jew coastal 80s-90s helicopter parent hand wringing upbringing rather than actually being a radical thing thats based on actual politics
to those white boys i say: i (and all marginalized groups) am not your mama and please go to therapy
but also my answer to all of this is whiteness. when you steep yourself in whiteness (including only reading white theory) then you get white supremacist ass solutions. this is a society where all white children (regardless of political affiliation) go through an adolescent phase of hating black people and being extremely racist towards black people (it seems damn near impossible to find a white male who has never done edgy n word chat roulette shit) so these are the results
i havent been proven otherwise to be honest and at this point dont believe it is possible also like american society is racist not just white society and everyone including marginalized groups who the racism is directed at go through a phase of hating black people or themselves...otherwise why do we keep dying every week....like...it has to make sense...regardless of how people were raised society permeates...otherwise a whole lot of people would be alive right now
like i dont think its exactly natural for kids of color to go through skin bleaching phases.....some of them have great role models/ mirrors and yet turn to sad shit like that....as malcolm x says who taught you how to hate yourself
this is a society where all white children (regardless of political affiliation) go through an adolescent phase of hating black people
This is so very painfully accurate, saying this as someone on the "inside".
This question makes me think of the woke CIA ad from a few weeks ago, because I think it was that kind of mid-2010s intersectionality-cum-imperialism that the "dirtbag" left kind of emerged as a cultural reaction to.
The self-seriousness, the focus on individual empowerment instead of collective power, the desire to climb patriarchal capitalist systems instead of tear them down, etc. All of it stuff that the dirtbag left took deliberately opposing positions on.
Unfortunately, I think part of that opposition included a reluctance to engage with intersectionality in any form or write it off as just another tool of empire. Especially for straight white guys who only really felt oppression economically and not socially.
It's made worse by the fact that a lot of white leftists in the U.S. are downwardly-mobile former members of the PMC, so their idea of the working class is some romanticized vision of white West Virginia coal miners or something.
I don't think this is a problem that's going to be solved by anything less than the majority of "middle-class" white people going flat broke and having to ally with working class PoC just for survival's sake.
obviously white male leftists (like me) need to improve but doesn't the liberal university discourse also need to? that discourse is why the woke cia ad exists in the first place and is a perfect metaphor for how it ignores POCs internationally
doesn’t the liberal university discourse also need to [improve]?
Well sure, but 1. I think that's a separate discussion and 2. The co-optation of certain language doesn't necessarily mean that the language has no value.
I mean, yes, the ad speaks to just how enslaved to imperial capitalism The Academy and many academics are. And granted, I've never heard anyone on any of the shop floors I've worked use intersectional "lingo." But those both speak to the fact that there is some liberatory power in intersectional discourse. At the very least, it gives marginalized people a more concrete way of expressing their lived reality than they previously had. The powers-that-be have to co-opt the language because otherwise it would be used against them.
In other words, it's used to legitimize necessary college-grad professions like the CIA, while at the same time it's excluded from (or even mocked in) basic education. Helps make sure the proles stay nice and ignorant and paying more attention to ESPN's play of the day than to their ever-worsening conditions.
I think when people have issue with "iNtErSectIOnalitY," it's not explicitly the theories they are complaining about, at least in a charitable interpretation.
Is it problematic to say that intersectionality and other popular theories are eminently good theories but in America they are practiced by college elites who are free to ignore class and non-American POCs?
I agree 100% that it's a classed discourse itself, or in its own terminology, it's a privilege to be able to speak about privileges, and intentionally so. Imho this is how reasonably smart, educated, 'nuanced' people can look the other way when Kamala Harris calls Guatemalans homophobic.
I don’t think this is a problem that’s going to be solved by anything less than the majority of “middle-class” white people going flat broke and having to ally with working class PoC just for survival’s sake.
As theory predicts
I'd imagine if they're white they still have bits of white supremacy kicking around in their heads. I'm a white dude who used to be fash and I still deal with the thoughts from time to time. Not making excuses for them mind you, I just think this plays a part.
I mean, feels to me like you hit the nail on the head as to why they come off as crypto-fascists or crypto-white supremacists, they say a lot of the same shit and make similar jokes about social stuff and especially what I've noticed is disabled people get a lot of mockery.
As to why they become this way I'm not sure, my instinctual take here is that probably people kneejerk react to both the left having little success in the west and that a lot of the left in the west has stuff that is portrayed as "cringy" or otherwise embarrassing on the generally more right leaning internet. So they think "Oh this isnt working because we are cringe, we need to be cool and we do that by making fun of the cringe" or something to that effect. Basing this off shit like that time the red scare people got interviewed in a right leaning newspaper and one of them said some shit like "You can call me trans as a joke I wont be triggered".
disabled people get a lot of mockery.
Many here unironically use the r-word.
The thing that hit for me was when during a Chapo episode, Felix made a joke about "spoons" which is a concept used in a lot of neurodivergent circles to basically visualize the amount of willpower and energy a person has to divide up each day, the joke was literally just that the thing in itself was funny somehow and it was just really fucking mean spirited.
Unfollowed him on Twitter cause he does a lot of that shit and thats like the mild end of what I talked about, when it doesnt go full social reactionary but theres still the instict to mock "cringe" stuff.
theres still the instict to mock “cringe” stuff.
You'll find humans do that when they consider whomever they are mocking as "The Other". All the bromides about tolerance and understanding get thrown out the window - those only apply to the ingroup. The outgroup has no such protections and may be treated like Mississippi police departments did to runaway slaves.
tbh they are white supremacists mostly. But they think having a rudimentary class analysis somehow negates their defense of whiteness. Also, "the dirtbag left" is an ideology of working class tailism that declares reactionary elements of the working class are defensible simply because they stem from the working class. The dirtbag left is a complete malefactor to building a genuine liberatory and inclusive working class politics.
I’d say that “dirtbag” isn’t an ideology so much as an aesthetic. That is, where the profane, ugly, and ridiculous is used as a rhetorical tool against reactionary and liberal targets.
" where the profane, ugly, and ridiculous is used as a rhetorical tool against reactionary and liberal targets."
Well, no wonder it's attracting so many crypto-fascists. That's basically what they do. You just described every meme that ever appeared on /r/The_Donald. They just had their own, twisted idea of "reactionaries" - that's what people like McCain and Romney seem like to them.
declares reactionary elements of the working class are defensible simply because they stem from the working class.
Yep. Amber for example has never found a reactionary who she hasn't defended. Always always tries to make excuses for them and is a big reason I stopped listening to that podcast.
I don't have a lot of experience with anybody who is "dirtbag left" in real life, so I can't really comment directly.
I will say though that not being able to call white people nerds in leftist spaces doesn't make those enforcing such a rule red fash. Have you considered maybe you actually shouldn't be calling white people nerds?
This isn't coming from some sensitive place, I don't really care what you call me or any of my categories, but I think the one common thread I pick up on a lot of dirtbag left online vibes is an acknowledgement what being white doesn't necessarily mean you haven't been significantly, systematically oppressed for generations.
Like it or not, there are a lot of poor white people who bristle at a suggestion that they're privileged. And while yes, they technically enjoy a particular privilege that a POC with the same SES don't, for many it feels like an erasure of the type of oppression they have been experiencing for generations.
You can get angry at that cohort for being wrong about the definition of privilege and call them white supremacists, but it seems to met most dirtbag leftists acknowledge that these people can be comrades if there's just a minor effort to tone down the "WHITE PEOPLE AMIRITE HUR HUR" language so nobody feels alienated.
Criticizing white people for having unexamined internal biases and privilege is good, however.
While I agree in principle, I think it's important to ask what the point of a leftist space is. Is it to criticize each other until everybody uses the same language, or is it for coalition building?
Like imagine trying to form a union at but then shaming all your co-workers who aren't perfectly woke in all ways. It would be a complete disaster.
Once a coalition is built and people feel accepted they maybe can be brought in to the fold and educated about some of their views that may be reactionary. I just worry that leftists don't always have a good sense of when a struggle session makes a community stronger and when it works to tear a community apart.
I’m not talking about being hyper twitter wokescolds, but there’s obviously a baseline of sensibility and acceptability that should be employed
Unfortunately terminally lib-brained Americans can’t accept this fact even when they organize
Do you want to build a coalition with marginalized peoples, or do you want to make a white guy union?
Neither, I want a union that can organize and wield power to achieve an objective. And guess what? Sometimes people who join a union have reactionary views and yes that sucks, but part of organizing is recognizing people can be comrades even if they do have unsavoury views. But the point of organizing isn't to make everyone have nice views, it's to consolidate power between groups.
So what we talking about here? Are we talking about some leftist space that doesn't allow casual pejoratives about white people but does allow similar casual pejoratives about <oppressed minority x>? That's a pretty hard leftist space for me to imagine but sure, in that hypothetical chances are pretty good they need an intervention because that very likely alienates potential comrades.
But being willing to call everybody a bigot who doesn't have sufficient education to understand the nuances of privilege is a death stroke for organizing.
Definitely take Combat Liberalism to heart. That Mao character knows what he's talking about.
Don't overlook opinions and views that harm the group. That is, if you want a coalition, make a coalition that doesn't tolerate alienation. Like, you don't have to fix it, but bigoted statements are unacceptable.
Like it or not, there are a lot of poor white people who bristle at a suggestion that they’re privileged. And while yes, they technically enjoy a particular privilege that a POC with the same SES don’t, for many it feels like an erasure of the type of oppression they have been experiencing for generations.
'Privilege' is an ensemble attribute, not something that makes sense mapped down to a specific individual. Saying that an individual is "white-privileged" makes about as much sense as saying an indiviual gas particle has a specific temperature.
Who the fuck says that you can't say white people are nerds? I thought that was part of the whole dirtbag schtick is the self-deprecation.
That being said, look at the kind of language and thoughts that is being kicked around on this thread. Have you ever heard any of this kind of this style of talk irl outside of liberal universities or upper management (which are mostly dominated by white people)? I certainly haven't on any shop floor I've ever been on.
What is all of this? Culture war stuff. Different forms of white culture fighting with each other. Greivances with difficult connections to organizing labor to a point where we can make systemic changes. I think some good stuff has been said here about concepts such as white fragility, etc, but rejecting 'dirtbag' as an aesthetic because some crypto fash losers use it is basically saying stop using English because Reagan used it. You use the language you can to organize what you can to achieve the best outcome. Quite a few people respond well to leftist 'dirtbagism'. Are all of them good? No. But you separate the wheat from the chaff and move on.
That being said, it is incredibly effective online because this is a hate box and no real organizing occurs here. That's where it really belongs. Purely online. If you get people doing unironic dirtbagism irl in your group, definitely don't let them into leadership roles. Keep them on the entertainment or outreach sections.
Lmao why are there so many comments that are just "Wow so you think all white people are nerds and we cant even get mad about it?", really telling on yourselves.
I'm kind of fence sitting on this because I can't pick a side, but why are we encouraging attacks on specific people's race anyway?
On one hand, mayo jokes and shit are funny because white people are privileged and it's not really punching down, and I've never been offended by somebody airing their grievances about how they've been mistreated by white Americans consistently and shit. But if you're in the company of fellow leftists, and you start joking about white people or making "racist" comments about white people and it makes them uncomfortable, why would you demand they shut the fuck up and let you keep dunking on mayos? Are you more offended being reprimanded than the target is from receiving your perceived "racist" insult?
At least in America - as a white person, you are white, first and foremost above every other identity.
Being a white person in America means being raised in white supremacy, due to it being a dominant cultural force. If you’re white, you’re most likely racist unless you unlearn that behavior.
Saying this makes white people angry, but honestly it’s not their fault they are racist, once again it is a behavior that has to be unlearned. Being steeped in white supremacy and racist ideas day in and day out through all of America’s institutions is unavoidable.
Being a leftist does not mean that you have unlearned racist behavior magically. This is where intersectionalism comes in to play. Being class conscious does not mean that you also gain a concept of anti racism and intersectionality overnight. You have to make a conscious effort.
It’s hard to make a conscious effort to unlearn racist behavior. You have to go out of your way to do it. Some people don’t take this step, and some go in the opposite direction completely and you end up with the strasserite/stupidpol types. Some don’t go that far, but even this site is not free of racism.
This is not an indictment on white people, and I realize this is probably offensive if you’re a white person hearing this, but America is to blame, not the individual. You have to make the effort.
Well said. I'm an old millennial/young gen X-er. I don't take offense to the statement, "If you’re white, you’re most likely racist unless you unlearn that behavior," because in my case (growing up in the Chicago suburbs), it's true. Unlearning racism takes self-examination and uncomfortable confrontations. Some of my classmates ran headfirst in the other direction.
I think some of it might be that the dirtbag left aesthetic appeals to baby leftists - like, let's talk about class but we still make fun and swear and are mean to others groups. It is at it's core childish, but it is also intended to compete against the rights mockery of the left as "nice", and to bring in some passion (and defense of violence) into leftwing circles that are often extremely focused on procedure and theory. I think a strength of the dirtbag left is that it is kind of "cool", so it appeals to youth.
Saying that, dirtbag leftists need to grow up at some point. That is, at some point, theory, inclusion, internationalism, anti-racism, procedure, community building, teaching, and understanding all need to become "cool".
If they don't, that is suspect. It's either someone who won't let go of their white supremacy, or it's a grift, or most likely both.
really agree with you regarding the dirtbag lefty having to grow up. I think thats why i always thought the moniker was kinda weird because the people who coined the term--chapo people---were like 35 when they coined it.... because of that ive always associated the term with immaturity but also with people who should know better and who cant seem to grow up
i understand that the peter pan failson angle is part of why the dirtbag left stuff is so attractive but still
Oh absolutely. Ignoring bad ideas to keep the peace is some kind of liberalism.
Considering fucking Marco Rubio has started railing against Woke Capital you're definitely correct to do a reality check. There are definitely cryptos, some of them actual psyops, some of them individual chuds, some of them just stupid people who listened to too much Jimmy Dore. The confusion is part of their strategy, because it is genuinely confusing.
A rule of thumb is to check if someone airs positive, constructive, creative opinions in addition to generic anti-woke-neolib hate. Also remember that a pipeline can go both ways.
Some of them, it's definitely due to a lack of exposure to identity politics that's not Democratic Party-style identitarian reductionism, which is definitely more in the mainstream than truly leftist identity politics.
Also waltzing into a socialist space and calling white people names is liable to be wrecker shit. Critical racial discourse needs basic context to not come across as a personal attack on folks you don't know.l and starting totally pointless and alienating arguments based on nothing but miscommunication.
Making fun of Mayos here: obvious jokes making irony-poisomed light of real harms done by white people. Also just straight-up pain.
IRL walking in and talking shit: nobody knows your angle but it sounds like shit stirring all on its own.
Also waltzing into a socialist space and calling white people names is liable to be wrecker shit.
also guarantees that the only thing people remember is that you were randomly calling people "whitey" with no context instead of any useful message or idea.
Yeah, the "no context" is the big issue for me. I don't see anything wrong with a heated slant where there's a point to be made and am not generally a fan of requiring POC to be super careful and strategic about how they explain shit to white people, but if nobody knows what you're talking about all it can ever accomplish is discord.
Yeah those folks exist and don't really help anyone. There are also people who get sucked into very weird racist ideologies who will show up at certain events. Like variations on the Black Hebrew Israelites, that sort of thing. Like POC who are seriously against "race mixing" and think there best time to share this position is during an environmental working group meeting.
