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Only good 2-state solution is Palestine getting Palestine and Israel getting a sizeable chunk of Germany/Poland. Honestly i'm only being semi-ironic here
Welcome to the bad parts of "trading and having deplomatic relations with literally every country or possible party" and "not supporting or promoting subversion of the status quo on any foreign country no matter what that may be". Thats the strict party line for decades now and China wont openly side with radical anti colonial or liberatory movements on foreign countries, it just will be there to ally with them and support them and persue bilateraly beneficial relationships if and when they succeed and wont overthrow or supress them.
The results are cringe toothless stances on issues like this which are around the average socdem position worldwide. The days of exporting revolution and supporting "subversive" to the domestic status quo movements worldwide are gone with Mao. Maybe if and when China comes out on top of this new cold war and is able to remap its foreign policy ,soft power and projection based on the new global status quo and completely on its own terms things may change, In this case it may mean the likely scenario that Israel will progressively be less able to be maintained and supported as a highly militarized and subsidized by the US hegemony protectorat and China not caring to "adopt" and use it in the same way
Unless this response is meant as a general statement ,it has little to do with my comment
I literally call it a bad ,cringe and toothless socdem stance and there isnt a hint of supporting or justifying it, let alone not being critical
and saying
Maybe if and when China comes out on top of this new cold war and is able to remap its foreign policy ,soft power and projection based on the new global status quo and completely on its own terms things may change, In this case it may mean the likely scenario that Israel will progressively be less able to be maintained and supported as a highly militarized and subsidized by the US hegemony protectorat and China not caring to “adopt” and use it in the same way
is miles appart from you saying
every bad china take is supported by essentially ‘ok but when they win and hit the socialism button they’ll be perfect’...them eventually becoming anti-imperialist is not supported by anything they have done. socialism in one country, perhaps. global anti imperialist? there is no evidence for that besides our dreams.
which feels like a response to what i said and would be putting way too many words and assumptions in my mouth. What i said doesnt even presume a socialist China, let alone an actively anti-imperialist one. I think my presumption is pretty realistic all things considered
Which leads to a last point ,thought i generaly agree with what you say. China's rise and success diminishing and overturning the golbal US military, imperialist and economic hegemony while China itself remains at worst as it is today (not actively anti-imperialist but also not imperialist in any significant and interventionist capacity) is itself one most impactfull and important anti-imperialist changes and wins in history, for billions of people and hundreds of countries. Even if it doesnt come from China having or persuing an active anti-imperialist agenda. The end or at least the diminishing of an era of the tens of millions of deaths due to Western imperialism, hundreds of millions of lives ruined, countries destroyed and impoverished, regions distabilized, governments overthrown and couped, dictatorships backed and trained, torture genocidal wars doesnt require China becoming communist and globaly anti imperialist and perfect. Just not becoming exponentially,hillariously worse and more imperialist and interventionist than it is now . Almost every single socialist or anti-imperialist country or movement or project from Cuba to Bolivia to Rojava to Venezuela would be in a much much better position ,materialy ,deplomaticaly ,economicaly and geopoliticaly with no multi level interfeerence and aggression by global hegemony .
You dont have to dream about socialist or ideologicaly anti imperialist buttons and transformations to see the very likely possibility of China being semi-passively the catalyst of a huge and world changing blow to the grip of global imperialism
anything otherwise is a remnant of the white roots of marxism
you're off the deep end dude
ITT people learn for the first time about China's policy of blanket non-interference.
China's policy is what has allowed it to exist. You pay taxes, you are also complicit in the genocide of Palestinians.
Eh , not actively trying to export and support revolution may be an important point of their position and survival as they are now. But still they do have room for better stances on Israel than this, even if they just are persued through diplomatic and economic channels
But still they do have room for better stances on Israel than this
Do they? The US is yearning for a chance to escalate, and this would do it probably.
concrete example of what? More proactive stances than their current one ?
Something concrete and specific that they could do that wouldn't contradict their non-interference policy.
There is not a single more genocidal and colonialist country than any anglo settler regime, both by scale and depth. How come you don't ask americans on this site to return the stolen land they live on? how come you don't ask white countries to demand the return of stolen american land? how come you don't demand European countries to stop all relations with settler regimes? how come you keep paying taxes to fund the genocide of Palestinians while you occupy stolen indigenous land?
Apparently it only bothers you that China maintains the UN supported position while being a non-imperialist superpower, having developed without stealing land or continental scale genocide. What a weird set of priorities, but then again, this is an anglo site.
Show me a single example reprimanding western people on this site for not returning stolen land. I will wait.
Your post history reveals you are lying, you don't really care about settler regimes. This is the only the second post where you even mention the word "land". Claiming to be something which you are not is the epitome of a self-proclaimed "leftist" in anglo-controlled sites.
Let the people there call it whatever they want. But Palestinians and Israelis need to learn to live together. You can't split a country in twain like Israel has to Palestine; as a scattered Palestinian homeland blockaded by sea and land will just continue endless apartheid.
An aside: China's overseas naval base in Djibouti extends the Chinese navy beyond the Indian Ocean, but without a Mediterranean base the use of the Suez Canal could be very expensive for a blue water navy. If Israel ever lifts the blockade of the Port of Gaza the local Gazan government would finally be able to finish a deeper port and start servicing vessels like the PLA Navy. Gaza City should be a major Mediterranean port of call for ships entering and exiting the Suez Canal. It is obscene that the Palestinians are only allowed to make use of their port for fishing.
But Palestinians and Israelis need to learn to live together.
If one group of people is actively genociding the other group, I don't think the primary concern is for them to learn to live together
Living together, right now, is not the primary concern at all; but a single state is the only long term solution.
There is no conceivable two state solution which does not end in apartheid.
The genocide has to stop, obviously. The refugees needs to be allowed to return, obviously. But practically speaking you can't send every Zionist coloniser back home, just as you can't send every American coloniser back home.
The only chance of peace is for Palestinians and Zionists to live together as equals in a secular multiethnic state.
Uh no Israelis need to shut the fuck up and get in the sea. Complete and total irredeemable Nazi society. Gonna ask slaves to reconcile with their slaveowners next?
Israel cannot continue to exist without ever increasing levels of violence against Palestinians.
Forgiving what Israel has done is never an option, but the young burgeoning demographics of Palestine should be the majority and in control of the entire area. That is the only single state solution that respects the sovereignty of the people there.
Do you think the Nazi society that views Palestinians as subhumans is going to tolerate their control? Absolutely delusional. They are Nazis and they will turn Palestine into glass before they tolerate Palestinians having control.
Right now you are absolutely right, but long term Israel is stuck in the same place that South Africa was.
I'd like to hope that like South Africa the colonizers relent and give control back to the people they usurped it from peacefully.
Uh things are not going well in South Africa. The white settlers are reacting violently to the minor attempts at equality being imposed.
S. Africa Wealth Gap Unchanged Since Apartheid, Group Says:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-04/apartheid-legacy-maintains-south-african-wealth-gap-group-says
I don't know a great deal about South Africa, but everything I've heard makes it sound like a deeply stratified country with significant problems with racism. I don't think that this should be the model for de-colonialization.
Yeah, exactly, the "Israeli" society is deeply, mask off reactionary colonizers, large percentage of the settlers living in occupied Palestine openly support genocide and apartheid.
Vietnam kicked all of its colonizers out. It's not up to me, but hopefully Palestinians come up with something similar.
I will respect the choice of the Palestinians. It’s their land, and their choice.
This is the correct stance rn but unfortunately unless a big regional or world power intervenes financially and militarily massively on the side of the palestinian movement while the US doesnt on the Israeli side i sadly dont see the possibility of majority of Israeli's getting in the sea. So its not unreasonable to think that even in best case scenarios a large number of Israeli's will probably will have to live in the same state as Palestinians . Probably would have to learn the best lessons from the failures and situation of south africa "post" apartheid
Israel has nukes and you would have to be very ignorant of the history of those people to think they wouldnt be willing to plunge the world into nuclear hellfire rather then being driven from israel. Thats the beginning middle and end of the argument.
I don't think Israeli apartheid will end until the US crumbles. I think I'm more optimistic on that timeline than most.
I agree, but eventually in the one state Palestine former Israelis and Palestinians will have to live together.
Yeah, and? Israelis gotta stop being whiny brats and allow Palestinians human rights
As an Arab this is definitely true, but there is enough pain and anguish and ignorance that it would still take some effort from us.
China's relations with Israel is fucking cringe and I say this as someone who frequently gets called a 50 cent army wumao
They even sell them fucking weapons lol
They're not an arms exporter to Israel. Israel is the arms/military equipment/technology exporter to China in that relationship. Israel was trying for years to become China’s back door to western military technology and arms due to sanctions on China from the US and Europe that aimed to freeze China’s access to advanced military technology and weapons after the events at Tiananmen. China’s military exports are mostly to Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Algeria. They tend to prioritize selling weapons to their neighbors.
So to clarify, China works with Isreal because it's a way they can funnel American military tech into their country?
It’s a factor. The sale of Israeli military technology for developing tanks, air-to-air missiles, and jet fighters to China that helped modernize China’s army and air force frightened a lot of western government officials:
Despite the previous reports, the bluntness of the C.I.A. assessment surprised Congressional specialists and appears to reflect a growing concern among American intelligence experts that China is seeking to use Israel indirectly to obtain military technology that United States and other Western nations have refused to sell to Beijing.
The intelligence agency reports that despite worries in the West about China's military buildup and its export of missile systems and other weapons to Pakistan, Iran and other nations, Israel has continued to share military technology with the Chinese.
America has still been trying to limit Israel from re-exporting shared western military technology to China and did manage to force Israel to cancel some of their previous deals that included upgrading Chinese drones with their technology and the sale of their airborne early-warning radar system technology to China. Western officials are also still afraid of a civil-military integration strategy in China where the Chinese government encourages commercial exchange with the west to then funnel acquired technologies to China’s military. With many of the most advanced chips in the semiconductor industry being developed in Israel and the dual-use nature of semiconductors, American officials are concerned that China’s interest in this sector would be used to further modernize and strengthen the PLA, which has goals of completing military modernization by 2035 and of becoming a “world-class” military by 2049. There's also the issue where China likely does not want Israel right now to become another government to strengthen military ties with Taiwan (oddly enough, Israel was the first in the middle east to recognize the PRC as the legitimate government of China in 1950, which is something I still don't really understand why). China’s arms imports still overwhelmingly come from Russia.
Vietnam has also become one of Israel’s largest markets for weapons and surveillance technology. Regardless, it would still be best imo for socialist governments (including Vietnam and China) to adopt the DPRK’s approach to Israel:
North Korea does not recognise Israel, denouncing it as an "imperialist satellite".[2] Since 1988 it has recognised the sovereignty of the State of Palestine over all of Israel.
No, they don't. westerners stop projecting your crimes and sins challenge.
China is simply maintaining the UN's position. This is what upholding multilateralism entails. Neither europe nor america uphold it, hence why nothing can be done to help Palestinians through the UN. The problem is not the global south, as usual.
This is not hard to understand if some people here actually read what the UN is about. But dystopian western media has consistently censored how the UN votes on key issues like Palestine, or what the official stances of western regimes are on actual human rights worldwide.
It's quite dystopian how some users on this site are at the point of anglo societal collapse where they don't even have the energies to educate themselves any longer, they have given up completely. Part of the reason why the societal collapse of anglo regimes is impossible to mitigate, there is no dissent at any non-negligible scale. Too easy to manipulate, too uneducated, too lazy. They get what they deserve.
North Korea, Cuba and democratic South African government (ANC), famous western settler governments.
Those are all key allies of China (the DPRK would not even exist without China, which is basically the only country helping them survive by evading sanctions). I don't understand what you think you are saying. Cuba also supports the UN position. You would know, if you had bothered to read.
Yes, I, like China, defend international law, not "rules based order" (what "rules" exactly?). I like how your brain has been captured by propaganda so brutally you don't even understand that the term "rules based order" is literally a propaganda deflection by your regime, to avoid accepting the real thing that already exists called "international law", precisely because western regimes do not uphold international law, as Palestine shows. China does uphold "international law", hence why it's so ironic you can't even understand the meaning of words any longer. Full propaganda brain, you don't even get the basics.
Also, which part is exactly wrong about China's policy? I mean real policy that produces actual results over time, not the cringe-worthy virtue signaling you are used to in your settler regimes due to your anti-democratic regime rendering you completely impotent. What have any westerners ever done for Palestine in any material sense? I can name plenty of things China has done for Palestine on material terms.
China is the only country basically keeping Palestine with leverage. Through its network of allies like Iran and the DPRK, Palestine knows it still has support while even many countries in the region have threatened to ditch Palestine, like the gulf states. That China upholds the UN in turns gives China a lot of leverage on the global south too (since the global south wants to have a say on international matters, not just be dictated orders). Over time, this helps erode the zionist "rules based order" status quo your settler/colonialist regimes defend, making "international law" the order embraced by the vast majority of the planet, as western regimes continue suffering accelerated decline. Time favors Palestine.
:fry:
Not sure if terminal brainworms or a bit account meant to make third-worldists look like sickos.
I've never really met a third worldist who seriously believed the brainpain level shit, damn.
lmao, you literally keep genocided indigenous children in mass graves to not uncover the true scale of your genocide. Are you one of those "white lives matter" dudes lmao?
This whole comment reads like what a stoner turns in as an essay when they haven't read the assignment.
In other words, you don't have the knowledge so you can't reply. Quite funny how much it bothers you that I call out the crimes of the settler regime you pay taxes to. When will you uncover the mass graves of the children you keep buried to pretend you aren't a genocidal settler regime to this very day?
Class reductionist people like you will only continue to get more depressed about reality because your understanding of the world is fully incompatible with reality. That's the eternal curse of settlers in denial.
China unfortunately also supported the two-state solution under Mao with their support for the UN Resolution in 1974 on the Two-State solution. Vietnam and Cuba also support the two-state solution sadly and even Maduro reportedly expressed a desire to reestablish relations with Israel back in 2017 (Chavez had cut off all diplomatic ties with Israel in 2009 and expelled the Israeli ambassador). Vietnam is also increasingly becoming a major trading partner with Israel unfortunately. Cuba, China, Vietnam, and Venezuela still do continually condemn Israel's actions against Palestinians though and China still does materially support Palestinians including provision of water desalination projects, solar power generation in Gaza, and covid-19 vaccination aid. I believe Laos also supports the two-state solution. The DPRK is really the only AES state left that I'm aware of that still has a great position on the Israel-Palestine conflict:
Israeli–North Korean relations are hostile.[1] North Korea does not recognise Israel, denouncing it as an "imperialist satellite".[2] Since 1988 it recognises the sovereignty of the State of Palestine over all of Israel, except for the occupied region of the Golan Heights, which is internationally recognised as part of Syria. Israel considers North Korea and its nuclear missile program as a major threat to global security. It has called for international action on the issue. At times, Israel has been the subject of fiery threats from North Korean state media.
We should point out that there was a period in the 60s that Mao kinda changed approaches and China straight up trained , armed and materialy supported the palestinian cause as a liberatory revolutionary "violent" movement
Yes and unfortunately the overall revolutionary foreign policy that China displayed in the 50s and 60s largely ended during the late Mao era of the 70s and eventually led to what Chinese foreign policy is now:
It normalized its relations with Burma, and established diplomatic relations with non-communist countries: Malaysia (1974), the Philippines (June 1975), and Thailand (July 1975), all of which had been regarded as “lackeys of American imperialism” in the past.[28] In the context of confronting the Soviet Union and rapprochement with the United States, China adjusted its attitude towards these Third World countries. Meanwhile, China pursued a “dual-track” policy: it still provided a certain degree of support to anti-government left-wing parties.[29] Geng Biao used Sino-Burmese relations as an example: “We have diplomatic relations with Burma. [Prime Minister] Ne Win comes, and we have to welcome him. But the Burmese Communist Party conducts armed struggle, and we strongly support it. However, we can’t sever diplomatic relations with the Burmese government just because we support the Burmese Communist Party.”
Although the CCP claimed it strongly supported the armed rebel groups, this support inevitably grew weaker because it needed to maintain relations with their governments. In May 1974, China and Malaysia formally established diplomatic relations. The Prime Minister of Malaysia, Abdul Razak Hussein, in his meeting with Mao Zedong, repeatedly asked the latter to promise that the CCP would not have any relations with militant communists in Malaysia. Mao refused to sever the CCP’s relations with the Malaysian communists, but he compromised that “it is your internal affairs; we can’t intervene.” When Abdul Razak claimed he would “use troops and police to kill them,” Mao still said “it is your policy”; “we don’t intervene in your internal affairs.”[30] Later in July 1975, Mao told the Prime Minister of Thailand Kukrit Pramoj: “Someone asked me not to have relations with the communists in their country (Mao meant the rightest governments). I said no. How can communists not support other communists?... As for how you deal with the communists (in your country), we don’t intervene. Nothing more than condemning, fighting and killing. We don’t and are unable to manage it. (We) can’t intervene in other countries’ internal affairs. ”[31] By reiterating “we don’t intervene,” Mao implied his declining endorsement to the communist rebellions in Southeast Asia, although he didn’t completely abandon them.
Geng’s speech also illustrated the subtle change of Mao’s foreign policy. “We should not intervene in their internal affairs,” said Geng Biao. “Each countries’ Marxist-Leninist parties’ guidelines, policies, and strategies can only be made by themselves and through the integration of Marxist-Leninist principles and their practical situations. No matter how correct you are, if you don’t understand their situations, it will be very dangerous to command them. In the past, the Soviet revisionists always wanted to command us, but we didn’t listen to them.” Geng’s talk justified China’s declining support to the fraternal communists in Southeast Asia by referencing Mao’s philosophy, “integrating the principles of Marxism-Leninism and the particular situations.” The CCP wanted neither to participate in other communist parties’ conferences nor to invite other parties’ members to join CCP events. “The meetings we hold are to solve our own problems. What happens if they disagree with us when we are giving a report? If they invite us to attend a conference, we cannot keep silent about what is wrong. The moment we speak, we will disagree with them and quarrel with them. They are the hosts, and we are the guests. It’s not good to quarrel with them on their own turf.” China was also reluctant to train military personnel for its communist brothers. “We should tell them that fighting is not a big issue; they can learn when they fight. Some always ask to send military cadres to come here to study. We should tell them there is no need to do so,” said Geng Biao.
The CCP emphasized the role of “political support” - “political support is primary; economic support is secondary,” according to Geng. But in fact, this political support was also decreasing. Propaganda support was one of Beijing’s traditional means of political endorsement for the fraternal parties. The left-wing parties’ armed struggles were often the focal point in the Chinese media. In the middle of the 1970s, when China had improved its relations with Burma, Malaysia, Thailand and the Philippines, Chinese media gradually reduced its reporting on the revolutionary insurgencies in these countries. It also avoided criticizing the Southeast Asian leaders by name. Additionally, in the past, the Chinese media had underscored the importance of Mao’s approach of armed struggles in the countryside when reporting the insurgencies in Southeast Asia, while in the middle of the 1970s, the reporting had to admit the complexity in Southeast Asia and encourage political movements in cities.[32] Three China-based clandestine radio stations—the Voice of the People of Thailand, the Voice of the Malayan Revolution, and the Voice of the People of Burma—were still able to pursue different lines from Beijing’s media. They continued carrying anti-government propaganda. But, Chinese media references to these clandestine stations became less frequent as the 1970s progressed.[33] The above demonstrated a dimming in Chinese zeal to spread revolution.
Mao Zedong himself was reluctant to give up revolutionary ideals, as well as the endorsement to fraternal parties, but he had no better option. He realized other communist parties did not live up to his expectations because they achieved little and were unable to overthrow their governments. He had to compromise and placate those foreign government leaders.[34] Revolutionary ideology declined in Chinese foreign policy in the 1970s.
Sucks, but also seems in line with their standard foreign policy of "shut the fuck up and play nice as much possible". They also give a lot of support to Palestine through infrastructure and (I think) vaccines.
