Nah I’m with Felix that shit is hilarious for the same reason Mormons are funny despite all the fucked up racist theology and multitude of splinter cults
Of course it's funny if you don't imagine these people currently having kids who are subject to their beliefs and abuse.
Here's some funny hijinks the NOI has been up to, like human trafficking and forced child labor! Those scamps!
https://www.mcguirewoods.com/news/press-releases/2018/5/Trafficking-Survivor-Awarded-Damages-Lawsuit-Against-Regimented-Cult
https://www.thedailybeast.com/united-nation-of-islam-cult-leaders-forced-colonics-weekly-weigh-ins-on-kids-feds-say
Why don't you have a fun laugh at the abuse stories on r/exmormon too bro!
For you it's just about how wacky the ideology is on paper or how ridiculous it sounds being screamed by a believer, not how horrifically it's being implemented on existing people those believers have active control over.
Also beyond treating the ideology as "amusing" Felix is just falsely writing their behaviors off as harmless, which implies he's only had superficial interactions with believers.
or aren’t a black person at risk of being harassed or assaulted in the street by them for holding hands with someone non-black.
Where are you from where this is remotely an issue? Do you know any black people who went thru this? Has this happened to you or someone you know?
Why don’t you have a fun laugh at the abuse stories on r/exmormon too bro
Yes r/exmormon famous place where no one ever cracks jokes about mormonism
For you it’s just about how wacky the ideology is on paper or how ridiculous it sounds being screamed by a believer
lol there is no "on paper" for me I KNOW NOI members, and yes they have reactionary tendencies not to the extent of the cultists you're describing, but no one ever called child services on them or accused them of child trafficking, sounds to me like this is a mostly on paper thing for you
At the risk of compromising my opsec: I once attended a sermon by a NOI preacher (wasn't my idea) the dude spent the whole time railing against the Iraq war and extolling black people to "boycott" the US military and how the US hanging Saddam made them "no better than him", the best sermon I ever went to, and it's one of my best goofy stories to tell, it's like people in real life are dynamic or something and don't just fall into neat little moralistic categories, Idk maybe that's just me
Yes the leadership are monsters and plenty of splinter cults have engaged in horrific shit, but that's no different from any other hierarchical religion, and it doesn't mean you're out of touch for cracking jokes or finding the mythology fascinating
how likely do you think they would make excuses for them, to reaffirm their faith in the leaders’ power? And if you say they are just like any other conservative cult, why treat this one with kid gloves?
Why would I make excuses for child traffickers, and who said I'm treating NOI with kids gloves, you like making bullshit assumptions don't you?
Exactly, your relationship to it is anthropological, consumption from afar, and superficial
"Consumption from afar" motherfucker I was in the front row, I knew the family, who are you, where you from again? And "insular" funny considering partially the only reason I attended the sermon was because the local NOI chapter extended an invitation to the local black mosque to swap preachers for a couple sermons, everyone knew the NOI families and no one had reason to suspect they were performing cult rituals with their children in the basement, but I guess we all should have just been paranoid and sicced the cops on them "just in case"
He does the same shit with the Tariq Nasheed fans, because his relationship with the guy begins and ends at the funny stupid shit he says, but for black women, gay black people, and black people in interracial relationships Nasheed’s followers are a constant source of abuse.
You really are online
Making fun of a belief system like Mormonism is one thing
No, it's the same fucking thing, now you have me wondering what it is about NOI that you find so uniquely repulsive despite the fact that Mormonism is a far more powerful and dangerous religion just in terms of scale and influence alone, you gonna make another post like this when Felix cracks one of his ironic Mormons are the real Americans bits
but how would it sound if Felix talked about the kind of Mormonism described in r/exmormon the way he talked about NOI, saying all their kids are totally normal and it’s mostly just having boomer books and being nice?
You ever been to r/exmormon that's literally what their struggle sessions are all about
Nice edits by the way
Any read of your comments above would indicate this.
Yeah, a disingenuous read looking for sympathies that don't exist, what part of "Yes the leadership are monsters and plenty of splinter cults have engaged in horrific shit" is confusing to you?
Yeah that is not mutually exclusive with “insular” in the definition that no followers report one another’s activities to the outside world
Funny considering that preacher was pretty open about his theological/political disagreements with what he called "corporate Chicago" in a chapter that was supposedly the largest, almost like real life is weird and messy
You have to twist my definition to mean physically afar
And you have to butcher a bunch of sociology terms to present my experience with the cult as some sort of aberration, just what do you think I meant when I said I knew the families, do you think it was a passing acquaintance, I know their kids, we went to school together, we grew together up, I still keep up with one of them semi-regularly (thinking about texting this exchange to see what they think) they're all ex-members, last I knew they all have the same basic take on the cult as Felix does, as do most people who knew them and grew up in the community, recognizing the basic fact that experiences can differ even with wild cults doesn't invalidate the experiences your supposed partner went thru
You really don’t know how much this shit has bled into real life among the black community, including how the recent subway shooter parroted Nasheed’s viewpoints.
lmao just stop, I promise you the Disciples of Nasheed are not tearing apart the "black community" get off twitter
The point is making fun of the ideology is different than Felix baseless decreeing the followers are just race swapped Ann Coulter fans
Your bizarre, convoluted point rests on the assumption that Ann Coulters fans aren't exactly the same type of people with insane religious mindsets, do you think Felix was giving NOI a compliment when he compared them to boomer chuds, BOOMER CHUDS are more fuckin dangerous to my life and all the lives of those victims you hide your takes behind then NOI times 10, so what is your point, is NOI more dangerous to black gay people than Ann Coulter and her ilk? Cause if so, that's fuckin stupid
“Nice edits by the way”
When you type something stand by it, don't get shy, say what you mean
And I notice you never engage with the gay kids point because you can’t justify it.
Why would I argue with a point I agree with, you and your bullshit assumptions
5 old day account trying to argue Ann Coulter and millions upon millions of chuds she represents are less dangerous than a shrinking cult with 50,000 members while labeling anyone who disagrees with this batshit take a transphobe
The fact you don't take Ann Coulter seriously shows your disregard for Muslim Americans who are subjected to decades of FBI harassment and torture, there how you like them apples fuckface
You implied all of that with every other sentence you dumbass troll, you gave away the game multiple times, did you seriously think you were being clever lol?
And nobody gives a fuck about Farrakhan’s views he has no political influence in this country, (50,000 members the majority of whom are harmless vs hundreds of millions of chuds who vote and want to create a fascist utopia)
Again you wreckers cant ever successfully troll this site cause you dipshits don’t know how to develop a materialist analysis of anything, it’s all backwards idealistic moralism with you hacks, a perfect mirror of the liberal mindset and most people here don’t truck with that nonsense
Better luck next time wrecker :)
That account is a wrecker, 5 days old account and now is trying to tell me Ann Coulter and the chuds she represents isn't really that big a deal compared to NOI, lol I smell a troll
either a troll or someone who legit thinks right-wing white chuds are less of a threat to them.
:thinking-about-it:
Things being traumatic and fucked up makes them funnier usually. It's kinda how that works. Like cops, Nazis, etc are inherently silly and ridiculous. Funny doesn't mean good or harmless. In fact, if something is harmless its hard to find any humor in it.
Buddy let me introduce you to something I like to call....... Cold Pockets
I'd be pretty tramatized if I bit into a hot pocket and it was literally ice cubes. Start questioning reality after that.
fwiw, as someone raised in a very different kind of fascist ideology, the details are remarkably similar to my own experiences - I totally get people thinking their experience with one religious fascist group translates into experience with another. as much as we need to be careful of generalizing our personal experiences too far, we should also be careful of pre-supposing that our experiences - or those of the people close to us - are exceedingly unique, awful in a way that transcends others abilities to understand without some kind of direct experience. this latter view, that only direct experience can possibly give any true knowledge of a struggle, is supremely isolating. it denies the human capacity for empathy towards others with experiences unlike our own.
in the end, we're all remembering our own traumas, or those of the people closest to us. and to laugh at those experiences is to build a kind of power over them. we don't laugh at the NOI or any other group of reactionaries to minimize the harm they cause but because they deserve to be laughed at. their behavior is ludicrous and ludicrously harmful to the people around them. humor provides that frame of mind and shields us from the dark memories that would otherwise leave us in tears.
and to remember the people around or just inside one of these groups as merely kooky isn't minimizing the whole cult. most of the people inside these theocratic groups really are merely kinda weird. the danger these groups represent is that they hide and shield the truly dangerous people, make them out to be normal and upstanding members of society. the rest... they're people caught up in something dangerous, that makes them toxic to others. but if we're to dismantle these cults, those people have to be brought out and deprogrammed. ultimately, they are merely kind of kooky people, with an asterisk that if you get too close, they may be able to suck you into a dark and violent group.
The other day I was at a historical fort and pointed to a group of people and said “oh look they have reenactors.” They were in fact just Mormons on a day trip and they did not look happy with me
NOI is a black empowerment grift cult. It's dangerous to its members but has little influence outside of the membership. It's antisemitic, anti-science, and just plain batshit. There are a lot of survivalist/back-to-the-land/homestead/apocalypse elements. There are a lot of pyramid schemes like selling coloidial silver infused water... There's a lot to it but all of it is intense and intensely weird
They also ran a forced child labor camp over the last decade:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/27/united-nation-of-islam-leaders-charged-conspiracy-forced-labor/
Every Nation of Islam person I've seen online seems absolutely fucking insane, IDK how people miss the borderline Nazism levels of antisemetism from them
There is a reason why they are considered a hate group lol
But in this case, I think Felix misses the fact that Yakub in this case is a white nationalist dog whistle
But in this case, I think Felix misses the fact that Yakub in this case is a white nationalist dog whistle
How?
White nationalists think its funny and use it ironically as a way to internally make fun of black people.
Basically like a "oh this is what they all believe look how stupid and inferior they all are" and shit like that.
I mean I feel like with cults its kinda expected to be "out of touch" with them unless you have direct or indirect personal experiences with them?
The chapos are out of touch in a lotta ways but not being intimately familiar with how bad a semi-integrated cult in society is doesnt feel like one of the worst examples exactly.
Before you go too hard on "People get hurt by this so it's not funny" thing, you made a joke about people dying from covid because they refuse to wear a mask. Leftists have family members who are anti-vaxx and anti-mask who die from covid. You're just selectively choosing what to be mad about. You understand why laughing at destructive behavior is okay, you just don't like it in this one instance because it allows you to dunk on something you dislike. Felix's sense of humor is annoying but attributing this much moral baggage to it is out-of-touch.
This isn't an argument that you can't laugh at chuds hurting themselves, just that there is always a human element to this kind of stuff. You just don't care about the human element when it's not your side.
Neither did Felix about NOI. He said they were normal people who do normal people things. We already know the right can be racist scumbags with terrible opinions about everything but also help people change their flat tire. It's not a defense of right wingers, it's admitting they're not caricatures. I believe you already understand that. However it's chapo and they're problematic so we have to read everything in the most uncharitable way because at the end of the day they're cozy, white-passing media people. They have a history of saying slurs and making inappropriate jokes. People still cling to the idea that liking something problematic makes you a bad leftist because it's causing harm to those who are insulted. Which is why this thread is trying to make the case that Felix's post is causing harm. The idea that NOI couldn't have gotten this far without brocialists treating them as an ironic joke is pretty silly. But we have to mystify what causes harm because posting is mystical.
I care about the human element but I don't think posts are what determines the power of something. I think it's a mystification to treat NOI as if it gets power from out-of-touch white people not taking it seriously. Just like it's a mystification to think right wing ideas have a grip on US society because 4chan exists. It's ahistorical and not really grounded in the cause of right wing ideology. Posts aren't what drive the world. NOI isn't bad because podcasters make it into a joke. NOI isn't gaining followers because Felix isn't condemning it using his platform. The idea that harm is happening because of these posts is mystification of why harm happens.
The choice isn't being mad at Felix or you're supporting harm to children, gay people, and women. Just because I'm disagreeing with the way you seem to be conceptualizing how posting fits into political reality, it doesn't mean I support NOI or what harm they do.
a good number of them will say they underwent the trauma of being told often as a child that an apocalypse/race war was coming any minute, being told (if they’re a woman) to be subservient to your future husband, explicitly barred from dating outside their own race (again, mainly if they were a girl), taught rampant homophobia (potentially being thrown out/hurt if they are gay), taught racist stuff about every race including Mexicans and Asians, and got their art or writing torn up, or favorite toys destroyed, if it featured white characters.
I can't and won't comment about NOI because I don't feel informed enough to have an opinion one way or another. But if I may, allow me to rewrite the above paragraph in a way that accurately reflects the upbringing myself and I would guess at the very least ~25% of white American kids are brought up with:
a good number of them will say they underwent the trauma of being told often as a child that an apocalypse/rapture was coming any minute, being told (if they’re a woman) to be subservient to your future husband, explicitly barred from dating outside their own religion and sometimes race too (again, mainly if they were a girl), taught rampant homophobia (potentially being thrown out/hurt if they are gay), taught racist stuff about every race including black folks, Mexicans and Asians, and got their Harry Potter or D&D books torn up, or favorite toys destroyed, if it featured characters outside what evangelicals consider normative.
Also very important to note that these kids are ALSO taught that every single person who lives or has lived will spend an eternity in a state of eternal, conscious torment in hell if they never accepted Jesus as their personal savior really fucks kids up. I actually once had a mild mental breakdown over this which at least led to my deconversion.
Also very important to note that these kids are ALSO taught that every single person who lives or has lived will spend an eternity in a state of eternal, conscious torment in hell if they never accepted Jesus as their personal savior really fucks kids up. I actually once had a mild mental breakdown over this which at least led to my deconversion.
I think one of my worst memories was being with my grandmother on her death bed as she desperately sobbed that she was going to go to hell
Same thing with one of my grandmothers, but it was my dad who was there for it. Divorced Catholic.
Its a marker of how manipulative it is. Her husband was bastard by the end, never did anything, bleed money from every scam out there. They separated a few months before it happened. She felt so guilty, talked about how she broke she broke her promise to god when she stopped loving him. All this misery just so shity men can treat their wives like property and shity bosses can treat their employees like property and shity cops can treat us like property. Because they know some people will rack themselves with guilt for the impropriety of seeing any other possibility, that god will punish them for wanting their lives to be better.
I'm sorry but this dumbass post just reminds me of how white and out of touch Chapos are.
Analysis: 5 day old account with an ambiguous post title phrased in a way it sounds like they're talking about the site and not the podcast. Angry as fuck in the comments and negating others personal experiences with the topic.
Most articles linked are about a splinter group from the Nation Of Islam. One quotes the feds (lol), another is a press release from a law firm that sued this splinter group. User has comments in other threads praising the "creativity" of the far right.
Prediction: If anyone else accepts their weird arguments, they will come in with an alt and attack the person for it. Attempting to upset actual users to pick up :both-sides: of the constructed argument and fight for them.
Rating: 5/10 :bait:. "decent" choice in obscure / divisive topic. weaves in race, religion, queerness, and abuse. "Chapos" phrase shows they've been lurking for a while, probably banned multiple times already.
When you've had a few accounts, you know the drill on how to not look like an asshole on day one. I've noticed long game wreckers don't usually post content about any sort of dense topics and instead just do memes and one-liners before they do their big spicy post.
I prefer the ones that go all in hard from the minute they log in, it's extra funny and shows they don't want to waste both their and our time with trying to blend in
Yup. The memes and one liners are normally decent slop too. Wonder if it’s the same fake maoists who got banned for transphobia or what
depends how the information is presented, where it comes from, and who delivers it. a 5 day old account that comes in looking for a speech and debate club while citing the FBI isn’t someone I’m going to trust lol
Great job, Sherlock!
thanks :big-cool:
Citing a news report about an FBI raid involves getting a quote from them, that means the event never happened!
(yawn) if you don’t understand the US has a long history of using the feds and criminal justice system to smear black groups, then I don’t know what to tell you. the FBI isn’t a reliable source, that’s not a controversial opinion.
And nice job rephrasing my mention of Frank Luntz focus grouping ways to sell evil policies to the public as me praising their creativity so you could, what imply that I am CIA?
oooh that’s a good summersault. do another one.
Checklist time:
- New Account
- Posts the lowest effort lib memes
- Most verbose comments include a call for the left to use right-wing organizing strategies
- Suddenly posts whatever this niche garbage is. The overwhelming number of Euros on here don't give a shit about this topic (not that it's bad to educate but framing is important) so it feels like they're really reaching to create controversy with something they already have info on
- They don't seem to have a good justification for it. It's too much of a conspiracy post to be a real dunk but they don't really have a reason why they care or why we should care.
- Immediately brings out insults when you call them out
- One of their dunk reasons is that the guy is Jewish
btw, you should do a generic version of this as an effort post. If you do, I’ll turn it into a shitposty infographic lol
I guess yeah. Your checklist formatting was really clear and crisp. :bloomer:
don’t give a shit about this topic (not that it’s bad to educate but framing is important)
yup. an effort post on why NOI is fucked up / not leftist would be a great resource.
Most verbose comments include a call for the left to use right-wing organizing strategies
why do these kind of trolls always have the same disorganized writing style too? reads like a redd*tor who thinks more words = better
One of their dunk reasons is that the guy is Jewish
fucking thank you. ironic since NOI is frequently criticized for their antisemitism. I was waiting for someone else to name that because I’ve been giving this dude enough shit.
I don't have a position about this topic because I frankly don't care about it. The part that I care about is that you appear to be using a posting method that's commonly used to sow division in social networks. And when people have called you out on it, rather than doing self-reflection, you dig in your heels further.
Maybe consider how this sort of thing makes you look as someone new around here. If this NOI topic really is that important to you and you're not just wrecking, then consider that there are better ways of getting your point across if you have patience and don't see the community as something adversarial to be conquered. Your urgency in defending your point at all costs suggests that you're more invested in this topic than you are with the social fabric of the space.
So, a couple things:
-
Most people on here haven't watched a Chapotraphouse episode in years, if ever (hence the hexbear rebranding). Most have moved far beyond vaguely leftist media and social democrats. It's just not something we consider worth talking about anymore because things like Breadtube, Berniebro podcasts, and "The Squad" are ultimately incapable of envisioning real social progress. If one of them is being weird and racist or reactionary, we just chalk it up to their liberalism and move on. Sometimes we do dunk on their shit opinions, but there's a difference between an obvious joke and an effortpost. You've blended the two together in a way that looks like trolling on the surface level.
-
We're very sensitive to trolling/wrecking because there are a lot of people out there who don't want us to exist. This place got thrown out of reddit for a reason and people show up all the time thinking they can sneak their bad faith actions under the radar. Our users are saying you fit the profile because of the stuff I said in my last comment.
-
It sounds like you have a lot to work through, but this probably isn't the space for it due to the community's detachment both from the podcast and with NOI. At least while you're a newbie and have few/no friends, it's going to be difficult to educate people on this topic because it's very niche compared to the issues we normally discuss. Consider getting to know people first, read some literature and read the sidebars in some of our comms. If you stick around for a while we'll even try to learn about you.
If I could give you a few pointers for some starter lit:
-
naw, I think you’re probs just killing time on Sunday. idk what kind of shift schedule feds have though, maybe it isn’t their weekend.
is there a reason you keep jumping to articles about these splinter cults from NOI while talking about them like they’re the actual NOI? you’re pretty grouchy so maybe that’s what is setting off my spidergirl sense
the feds don’t particularly care about ideology, just that a group of marginalized people is creating a parallel power structure. the org / structure can be dysfunctional, it’s just the act of marginalized people coming together that scares the state.
it’s odd you’re painting the experiences of someone in kansas city as somehow being the same as someone from NYC. even weirder to claim that a breakaway group located in the midwest is the same as the larger group they broke away from. what are your thoughts on the NOI groups in NYC and DC?
interesting, okay. the folks I know who are in NOI in my city are about on par with moderate black southern baptists. They’re neutral on queerness and we volunteer at some of the same food kitchens.
The only negative talk I’ve heard from them is against white people, but it’s impossible to be racist against white people anyway so :vivian-shrug:
no idea about the Nation Of Islam’s behavior in other cities, but they’re not on my list of groups I’m worried about based on my experiences.
I know they scare the shit out of white supremacists, though, which is probably why that 4chan shooter had a picture of yakuba pinned up in his saw trap of an apartment.
They are literally where the racist “We Wuz Kangz” meme came from.
I don’t know the meme, but “we were kings” is a completely understandable framing of the African diaspora.
The shooter had a pic of Yakub in his house because the 4 Channers make fun of the idea that Yakub created white people and call that action “based”
:fash-bash:
anyway yeah, I 100% would not allow my kids to have white dolls. People of color get enough white beauty standards every day.
Everyone here was freaking out about that news story of Texas schools running “illegal immigrant drills” to stoke fear in kids, but NOI parents literally do thing in this vein to their kids at home.
You want to link to where you heard about that?
You are talking like a white lib mom
wanting my kids to play with toys that look like them makes me a white lib mom lol ok
Where I heard about this? My partner’s NOI loving parent screaming that Mexicans would kidnap and sell her during the race war? Any online NOI content pertaining to the undocumented?
okay, so send that online NOI content over then. I’m not finding anything.
I don’t have much of an opinion on modern NOI aside from the followers I regularly volunteered with who have all been fine. I’m not a fan of Farrakhan, who is antisemitic. People frequently try to point to him as a way to equate white nationalism and black nationalism, which is cringe and inaccurate.
:billie-eilish-anarchist: thank you 🙏 it’s been fun to write between errands
From Wikipedia:
The Nation of Islam (NOI) is a religious and political organization founded in the United States by Wallace Fard Muhammad in 1930. A black nationalist organization, the NOI focuses its attention on the African diaspora, especially on African Americans. While it identifies itself as promoting a form of Islam, its beliefs differ considerably from mainstream Islamic traditions. Scholars of religion characterise it as a new religious movement. It operates as a centralized and hierarchical organization. Its critics, including the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League, have accused it of being a black supremacist hate group that promotes racial prejudice towards white people, anti-semitism, and anti-LGBT rhetoric. Muslim critics accuse it of promoting teachings that are not authentically Islamic.
I just didn't know what NOI was so I assumed I wouldn't be the only one. That's why I posted it, not to make an argument
sees guy describing a first hand experience he's had "Wow look how out of touch this person is!"
