So I got dumped in 2014. I discovered Bill Burr's You People Are All The Same standup routine, and for my broken hearted self then, it spoke to me. For those of you don't know, Burr jokes about women unable to have a rational argument, and using cheap debate tricks and emotional ploys to win arguments with men. Sorry, but the place I was in wasn't great. My thinking towards Burr in early 2015 was "OMG this guy is funny", late 2015 was "this is funny, but problematic", then in 2016 "OMG this guy is a fascist".
Another time I randomly found a dating app and profile on a girlfriend's phone when I was trying to connect her phone to the smart TV. There was a 45 minute space of time where I channeled all the hurt I ever felt in my past, and I started to think "yes all women are inherently selfish and deceitful". For that time, I was quite literally open to red-pill ideology. Thankfully I shook out of it. Having a support network to whinge about my pain helped too.
One bazillion percent, the dudes in my life have been worse than the women. Long term misogyny seems impossible.
your description of a rapid onset misogyny attack is, with the benefit of hindsight, pretty funny, and i thank you for sharing
Let me tell another story. There was this prof in my grad program way back. He was the cool professor. He'd drink and play snooker with us on Fridays after class. He was literally my hero at that time.
Anyhow, the guy married an undergraduate when he was doing his PhD (now considered pretty bad). There was maybe a 15 year age difference. Long story short, he was putting a lot of labour in to make the relationship work. They had kids and the guy made his family his identity (not a bad thing).
So apparently the wife was cheating on her older husband like crazy. Honestly I probably would too. At some point, they got divorced and it seems like she got a decent size of his assets.
So the guy starts drinking A LOT. He also swears way more and gets angry at everything. He posts a lot of Facebook selfies of him hanging out with the working women outside of the strip club. (is there a nicer way to say this?). He gets sacked from his job. Basically, he lost it. We had a lot of long convos where I tried to keep him sane and away from suicide.
So the guy posts a lot if red pill shit on Facebook. I definitely debated him a bit. Maybe I shouldn't have. Late on Saturday night, he's certainly drunk, he posts that "feminists are threatening my family". I'm like, dude, post screenshots. Guy blocked me. We haven't talked since. Mutual friends tell me that he's posting some real :reddit-logo: level shit on his fb page. It's kinda sad because he's never gonna work for a uni ever again, and his kids are materially struggling.
I fell straight into the hitchens/sam harris/peterson youtube algorithm when i got out of college (2017 or so) and was 2 years down that path when i met my absolute gigachad marxist partner, who made me realize what a pedantic psudo-intellectual shit i was
sometimes i wonder, had i not met them, how insufferably red-pilled I'd be today :cringe:
on the bright side, the whole experience proved to me that people can be persuaded (or ridiculed) out of bullshit ideology
Sometimes I think Sam is just a 10 strip and a :matt: from coming around. He’s got a long way to go, but Trump and Covid really put him at odds with some of his fellow travelers, and he has some of the same enemies and same allies as the dirtbag left.
Before you dunk on me, please know I’m desperately clinging to any hope I can concoct.
I definitely flew close to the sun. I was big into New Atheism and genetic determinism and evolutionary psychology when I joined the military, and in another universe I would have gone full fascist by the time I left it - but talking to actual lefties in the Bernie 2016 campaign was like a panacea to all of that. I still have a lot of what I now consider to be intrusive thoughts where I'll think some fucking shit that 4chan implanted in my head when I browsed it a lot as a teenager, I dunno if there's a way to stop that from happening though.
Military, 4chan....Geez there's a fucking minefield of things for kids to have to walk through these days to not make it out emotionally crippled. I'm honestly glad you're sane.
your first thought isn't what defines you. it's what you do with that and how you act. I'm still instinctively repulsed by some things that a bigot would open their mouth about but you'd never know it being around me and i'm just not trying to watch my friends in those groups do whatever they do in bed.
obviously it's better for yourself if you're not tempted to be screaming racial slurs or whatever all the time, but developing that filter and being better than you were raised or conditioned in spite of the indoctrination is part of character.
I used to be way into the show Forensics Files and probably 95% of the time the murderer ended up being the husband/boyfriend. It got to be so predictable that it pretty much ruined any plot surprises in the show. So, anyways, while people can be shitty regardless of gender, it’s incredibly difficult to think about stuff like that (and endless other examples) and also have the idea that women are somehow more evil than men.
Also, I think self-crit posts like this are great and should be encouraged, so much thanks for sharing.
Ya I think that part of the reason that woman murder stories are interesting is that they're so rare. Like when a mother kills her kids, it's repeat on TV for a decade. While with dads, it's basically a daily occurrence.
I thought people here like Burr? I don’t know it care about him but I thought the take is he’s a good dude and a socialist?
And no I never got red-pilled lmao
However out of all the series of different varieties of Men Going the Wrong Way I think the red-pilled dudes are the easiest to turn. Most of them just seem like confused nitwits more than hardened hate-filled CHUDs
Bill Burr has spent his entire career saying "Don't take the ideas in my standup seriously", having people take his ideas seriously, and then continuing to present the same ideas in his standup, even though people actually took his ideas seriously.
I haven't seen any of his stuff, but is this more like a Fight Club situation where he's playing an asshole character and some people miss the point, or is this like a 4Chan situation where "hur hur we're only joking about being Nazis"?
He plays the ignorant asshole, which is probably 50% real 50% fake. Its not a good thing because people take him seriously, but there are funny times when the people who take him seriously try to get him to support them and he just shits on them. It has led to backlash for him though where he had a period when he married his wife where his chud fans would lose it because she was African American, and he clearly still has chud fans since there was that video posted here recently of some idiot writing to him about how communism always fails
You're thinking Bill Hicks, I honestly used to do the same thing constantly
I thought people here like Burr?
Honestly I haven't followed him closely enough. But I remember him doing Joe Rogan and other podcast stuff and I was pretty disgusted. It was even humour, it was just shitting on women and "woke culture". Did he have a redemption arc?
He definitely said pro-socialisty things recently, I dunno if it's a full redemption arc or if he's just got a few good takes mixed in with the bad.
I'm not gonna argue because I don't know and I can't be arsed to look it up. I just assumed that he went chud. Maybe someone else here knows 😂
Didn't he make fun of Rogan for being anti-vaccine on his appearance though?
Did he have a redemption arc?
I have no idea his humour was never for me. I think I saw one bit where he normalized being attracted to trans women which seemed pretty good? Honestly that’s about all I know until modern day he had a clip posted here dunking on a normie anti-communist
He's a land of contrasts I guess. Hasan has played a few clips of him where he's really based but as others have pointed out on here he's had some not so based routines.
I didn’t have a moment that pushed me into misogyny but when I was younger I had a good deal of entitlement towards partners that I guess came from toxic masculinity and being socialized as a male or whatever idk I regret a lot of that. I grew out of it slowly but I treated some of my early partners in ways I’m not particularly proud of.
but when I was younger I had a good deal of entitlement towards partners that I guess came from toxic masculinity
NGL, I had that at times in my past too. Anyhow, do do better, but don't feel too awful as lots of us have this issue. The best and most mature thing to do it to admit it, so kudos to you.
I think thinking in terms of good and bad people stops you improving yourself. If you think of anyone who has sexist or racist ideas as inherently bad then you will be very resistant to having any sexist or racist ideas you have challenged and will never get better.
there are no good people or bad people there are bad things to do think and say
I love Bill Burr. It’s honestly great how his perspective on life has changed considerably. As he’s gotten better, Joe Rogan went full conservative. Interesting how they came out of the same stand up comic sphere but are completely different now.
For me, I never went full red pill but I did like the anti intellectual dark web around the time Trump was elected. I loved Bernie, hated Trump, but I hated Clinton more. So naturally I gravitated toward Jordan Peterson and the like. Luckily my girlfriend walked me through the MeToo movement and understood why I was feeling iffy about it. But she gave me reasonable solutions to misogyny and patriarchy and it kept me grounded. I eventually was like “why do we bash Socialism when we’ve never even read or studied it?” I think I read some Orwell and I made my way to r/socialism101 and then r/chapotraphouse.
Edit: just remembered Christopher Hitchens turned me onto socialism because he was talking about Marx in a serious way and it intrigued me.
Burr does not seem like a fascist to me at all. He's just super offensive sometimes but that's like what drives him. He has some bad takes but he seems squarely on the left.
I just randomly opened a YouTube clip of him joking about hitting women. I mean, it was nuanced. But it was still :cringe:
The Red Pill was in my hand circa 2013. I was a terminally online facts-and-logic anti-SJW type who discovered Tumblr through the wrong channels. My view of the alternative was greatly distorted by the content I chose to consume. The only thing that kept me from swallowing The Red Pill is that I knew it would require me to accept some form of far right ideology. I got close though. Close enough that I may have even uttered aloud my discomfort with cultural marxism.
It wasn't until I saw Hbomberguy's video about Davis Aurini and Gamergate that I realized that the opposition wasn't who they were made out to be. Hbomberguy showed me that the SJW's could be not only more rational but funnier and even more scathing. Instead of taking the red pill and being a fuddyduddy fascist, I could take the blue pill and be a dirtbag leftist.
oh yes, i used to watch those gamergate anti-feminist anti-Muslim videos but by ~2017 I started to realize how awful and hateful these people were and wanted to be exact opposite of them, that's how I "found" out socialism.
Quite a few of the younger male comrades in our reading group have been through their edgy, right wing YouTube phase in their teens. Glad you're here today.
i definitely went through an edgy atheist phase when i was a young teen, watching all sorts of youtube videos i would cringe at nowadays. i got completely scared out of that once a random video (predictably) went into smearing islam and muslims in general as "dangerous" and "ideas and people who shouldn't be allowed in western society"
pretty much stopped watching that shit overnight because of that. i can't help but wonder how far i would've gone down the rationalist-to-fascist pipeline if i hadn't stumbled onto a video that overt so early
I used to be almost militantly anti-theist and would play Devil's advocate for U.S. imperialism but became interested in Marxism. Just eventually came to the realization that no, religion is not the root cause of human conflict, it's just a convenient smokescreen for the ruling class. There are people who would kill for God(s), but they're almost invariably radicalized by material conditions and goaded by imperialists with completely irreligious interests.
Have always been virulently against "red pill" ideology. Not sure why in retrospect, guess I didnt have any real contact with men who were misogynistic when I was a child. And when I have had bad breaks in relationships with women I always blame myself, so I suppose that helps.
i was 18 and highschool failed to socialize me so i was reading like, rebecca watson's blog at the same time as starting to look at PUA shit (and not really buying it but who knows maybe years of that would've changed things) but mostly i was just sad for myself and mad that the world wasn't better so women would feel comfortable approaching or i couldn't just go "hey wanna hook up" during the day on the way out of class with the mutual expectation of "no" being taken for an answer.
fuck neurotypical men. you guys fucking ruined everything.
Ya I struggled hard with dating early on. Also I feel like the Western expectation of being in a relationship at 16 and it filling all your emotional needs is very damaging. Sorry to stereotype something I know nothing about, but I know some immigrant families where the son is in his late twenties, living with parents, and everyone seems OK with the situation.
it's still a struggle years later, or i assume it would be, covid, light disability, and unemployment keeping me from having any prospects. hookup apps seem like they'd be bad for my mental health so there's really nothing I can do in this shithole and nothing i can do about leaving.
People seem to like [thing i won't share on here on this account] that I made so that's good i guess. Doesn't lick my genitals or hold me at night, but i know better than to go down some manosphere pit.
jokes can communicate things the same as statements. A joke about how women are all lying bitches carries as it's semantic payload real sexism as much as just stating that women are lying bitches does. This is the reason joking at someone's expense is considered bullying
you do know this if you were in a room with a bunch of scary men who were joking about hurting you to give an extreme example you would feel uncomfortable. "it's just a joke" carries a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of jokes
not saying Bill Burr's are necessarily but if a comedian makes idiotic fucked up jokes punching down about how "muh wimmens bad" or "muh gays bad" like how david chappelle does then I'd say one should take their jokes "at face value" because there would be no deeper meaning or sophistication present. Just because someone is a comedian doesn't make them magically immune to criticism.
In all fairness, I shouldn't haven't been talking his stand up seriously. But also, ya, punching down in jokes is very bad. Like, in socialism it honestly should be illegal, at least for entertainment and public speech.
Ofcourse they arent immune to criticism, but comedy and comedians should be treated as purely entertainment not as a source of ones beliefs or opinions. Kinda like the same way you can read a book without agreeing with the main characters actions, you should view comedians as characters because thats usually what they are considering on stage / off stage personalities are almost always different. Im not tryna defend “muh wimmens bad” or “muh gays bad” but if you start hating women cause some comedian said so there are larger issues at hand concerning media literacy.
if you start hating women cause some comedian said so there are larger issues at hand concerning media literacy.
Not everything comes down to personal responsibility bullshit. Talking about media literacy is a cop out when certain artists deliberately make their content appealing for a specific low brow audience.
It is one thing to occasionally make content that is interpreted a certain way, it happens not every artist can have that much control over how the social media is going to react on a daily basis.
But if someone is consistently making a certain type of content then it doesn't matter if they are a comedian or not. They know what they are doing and if they don't then they are part of the problem. Pretending it isn't their problem is just liberal bullshit belief that artists have no responsibility over what they create. Yeah maybe in a perfect world, but this isn't it.
"It is one thing to occasionally make content that is interpreted a certain way, it happens not every artist can have that much control over how the social media is going to react on a daily basis."
Yea thats a good point, I've seen quite a few Bill Burr clips and there are definitely more than a couple which are very low brow / bordering chud behaviour, so it is more of a repeated situation with him.
Not everything comes down to personal responsibility bullshit. Talking about media literacy is a cop out when certain artists deliberately make their content appealing for a specific low brow audience.
Yea you make a good point I concede
"[Comedian A] jokes about women unable to have a rational argument, and using cheap debate tricks and emotional ploys to win arguments with men."
Is what OP reported. Unless this is an attempt to caricature or critique a misogynist by pointing out how awful this sort of thinking is, nothing in the paragraph that you shat out is an adequate justification for Comedian A's behaviour as "comedy". Comedian A said something genuinely bigoted. You can't say blatantly hateful shit and then use the excuse that you're "just entertaining people by playing a character, nobody should take me seriously."
When you respond to that with:
"[Comedian A] is a comedian why are you taking his jokes at face value?"
You're just making excuses on behalf of the bullshit comic for his harmful behaviour and practically doing the whole rightoid snowflake schtick.
Furthermore I think you are the one facing issues with media literacy, especially after you made claims such as "comedians should be treated as purely entertainment not as a source of ones beliefs or opinions". Have you not heard about comedy as a form of subversive art? Do you not know about how a comic's biting wit can be used as a form of social critique? Of course not because:
"Im not tryna defend “muh wimmens bad” or “muh gays bad” but ..... "
:gulag:
If watching a shitty comedy special turns you into a racist or a misogynist you have other much bigger problems lmao
If you wont see how unironically calling women as a group irrational and manipulative is not comedy then you are a liberal and a willful blithering idiot. Go back to 4chan.
Thank god comedians didn't have specials in the 30s and 40s otherwise they could've just used them as an excuse during the Nuremberg trials. :kyle:
