Voting matters. Y’all should grow up. Yes, voting doesn’t solve everything but it clearly matters.

Link

  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Babe it's 4pm, time for LiberalSocialist to demonstrate a weird sudden regression in their political awareness before lurching forward again

  • Shoegazer [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    The democrats still control both chambers until next year. They’re refusing to do a god damn thing. Ukraine gets a trillion dollars every 2 weeks. What the fuck do we get?

    • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      I don’t know. But they don’t put forth anti-lgbt and anti-abortion bills either, which if the Republicans get control of the govnermnt, they definitely would. Voting for Dems to prevent that is reason enough.

      • Shoegazer [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        Which is why :i-voted: for democrats. But refusing to do anything when you have power is one thing, refusing to do anything when your power is going to disappear in 2 months is no different than being a fascist in my eyes.

        They have access to the lifeboats and they’re just standing around while republicans are shooting everyone to get to the lifeboats to burn them.

    • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      2 years ago

      It’s only a certain segment of online socialists who advocate for “both sides are equally bad” and that we shouldn’t vote for either of them.

      • Dawn_Beveridge [she/her, comrade/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        And as we all know, online socialists make up for the majority of non-voters.

        Non-voters certainly do not represent the average alienated working-class voter.

        This is a materialist take. :very-intelligent:

        • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          2 years ago

          I’m not gonna go dunk on average prole workers for not voting for Dems. I get them not voting because of time, energy or just lack of faith.

          What I can’t stand is people who say “not voting” is actually the correct stance to take!!!

          • Dawn_Beveridge [she/her, comrade/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            Well, the non-voting masses are operating on the same line of thinking. Whether we want it or not, they will keep operating in that way, as long as the establishing remains the same. Yes, having everyone vote for the lesser evil would improve conditions somewhat, but that is idealistic wishing. People don't operate according to the most morally positive action, they act according to the conditions they live in.

            And so the discussion that should be had is why so much of the American population ( or in any liberal democratic country ) continues behaves that way, and what would be an effective way to channel that apathy into a new kind of energy.

            • Runcible [none/use name]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Personally I think the democratic party needs to fail before any sort of progressive party, let alone leftist party can form. They have shown that they won't stop reaching right so I basically look at this as a long or short term benefit choice.

              Also in regards to

              Yes, having everyone vote for the lesser evil would improve conditions somewhat, but that is idealistic wishing.

              While a little nitpicky, I think it is important to make the distinction that the Democrats have never shown any interest in improving conditions and will only (slightly) slow their decay. They will never deliver on the sort of change that is large enough to be meaningful

  • ssjmarx [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    Biden was never going to pass an abortion bill or other things, and if he really cared he would push the party to rush that stuff through during the lame duck session.

    Voting doesn't matter. I know because :i-voted:

    • aaro [they/them, she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Biden was never going to pass an abortion bill, sure. But Biden will never pass a nation wide transitioning ban. Trump would.

      • TreadOnMe [none/use name]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Absence of evil without the codification of good just delays the inevitable codification of evil.

        • aaro [they/them, she/her]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Good. Let's fucking delay the god damned evil instead of letting it proceed unimpeded please.

          • TreadOnMe [none/use name]
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            Yup. That is what leftists advocate for. Not for an organization around the actual mechanisms of working class power. Nope, just standing around and doing nothing.

            Under your strategy you will just end up with evil. Good job! :thumb-cop:

            • aaro [they/them, she/her]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Did I ever say to stop doing praxis? If I did, I'm sorry, my mistake. But I don't remember saying anything about stopping doing praxis.

              • TreadOnMe [none/use name]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Idk, do you think voting for Democrats is praxis? Cause it isn't. It is just evil delayed.

                • aaro [they/them, she/her]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  Evil delayed is preferable to evil immediately.

                  And because it seems to be up in the air, let me just clarify that a single well placed Molotov cocktail is worth a million votes. But if there's such a fuss about bubbling in some circles on a sheet of paper for fifteen minutes a year to have a shot at buying trans kids another year or two, I know y'all don't have what it takes to riot when it really counts.

                  • CyborgMarx [any, any]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    I just want to point out how absolutely bonkers this line of argumentation is to any Libyan, Syrian, Pakistani, Yemeni, Honduran, who else am I missing????....

                    It's kinda funny how reality makes a mockery of this kayfabe "lesser" evil bullshit, you think a kid getting torn to shreds by a drone missile gives a fuck about the so-called "lEser EvIliSm of uS doMeStiC pOlTics"

                    Don't play on morality and then expect people to vote for a foreign policy that is absolutely indistinguishable between parties and if NOT voting makes a person morally culpable for "something", then what does voting for people who drone children do to your morality, hmmm? Or is politics all about convenience?

                    • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                      ·
                      2 years ago

                      Every person who shouts about how democrats are the lesser evil should, for the good of humanity, be strapped into the clockwork orange machine and made to watch the collateral murder tape for a month.

                  • MendingBenjamin [they/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    fifteen minutes a year

                    Congrats on the well-functioning voting apparatus in your area. In mine it’s 6 hours and a day of lost wages. I still do it for the reasons you’re stating and because local elections are more competitive, but that’s just a nonstarter for a lot of people. Like, there are systemic reasons for people not voting. It’s not all moral failing

                  • TreadOnMe [none/use name]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    If you keep nagging people to vote for evil delayed, they will not trust you to ever codify good, and therefore when you claim that you will, they will rightfully point at you and proclaim "Liar!".

                • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
                  hexagon
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  You vote on election day and spend the rest of your time organizing. That is all I'm saying. Come election day, you vote for the Democrats. Why? Because they're better (less bad) than the alternative.

      • Pseudoplatanus22 [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        The only way he'd be able to do that is if he managed to get back into power, and the only way he could get back into power is if the Dems don't do enough to keep the GOP out of the White House. If they lose, it's on them for not earning left wing and working class votes and for not un-gerrymandering the electoral districs or fundamentally reforming the electoral college whilst they had a majority.

        As it stands they're holding women's and LGBT rights to ransom, but after Roe v Wade was overturned, we know now that they can't even protect what rights already exist. From what I can tell from the other side of the Atlantic, Americans don't really have any incentive to vote if they're not already living comfortably.

  • FoolishFool [she/her]
    ·
    2 years ago

    No. :gigachad:

    Fr tho: Even if the Dems kept the House, they would've just trotted out Manchin or Sinema like they always do so they don't actually have to do anything they promised.

    • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      2 years ago

      That’s just cope. Biden was gonna put forth an abortion bill and Manchin and Sinema (who’re in the Senate btw not the House) would’ve done jack shit against it.

      • MeatfuckerDidNothing [they/them]
        ·
        2 years ago

        That’s just cope. Biden was gonna put forth an abortion bill and Manchin and Sinema (who’re in the Senate btw not the House) would’ve done jack shit against it.

        Why didn't he do that before the midterms?

            • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
              hexagon
              ·
              2 years ago

              I know he could’ve pushed for the bill before, or even now, but that doesn’t excuse not voting for the Dems. The otherside are literal fascists. Just see what bills they’re passing in Florida and Texas and stuff. The mere fact that the Dems wouldn’t pass anti-gay, anti-trans and anti-abortion bills is enough reason to vote for them.

              • MeatfuckerDidNothing [they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                I disagree with not voting for harm reduction, but viewing it as a primarily individual failing is liberal bullshit. Systemic problems exist for systemic reasons.

                • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
                  hexagon
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  Yeah systemic solutions are definitely needed. But in this case the Reps won the House with less than 1% votes in these districts. At this stage, your individual votes definitely matter!!! That’s the point of the post!

                          • MeatfuckerDidNothing [they/them]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            No, youre being ridiculous, and I am taking your argument at face value instead of arguing with what I think you're trying to articulate so you can understand why what you're saying is wrong and modify it to not be ridiculous.

                            • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
                              hexagon
                              ·
                              2 years ago

                              Oh do you do get what I’m saying and just not want to engage with it. The fact that voting matters especially when it comes to these tight races that can make the different between capitalism and fascism and the ideology of not voting because “both sides bad” hurts our progressive cause and hurts the people we’re trying to protect.

                              • MeatfuckerDidNothing [they/them]
                                ·
                                2 years ago

                                No. I dont understand what youre trying to say. I can at most guess. Which is why I'm pointing out what youre actually saying is gobblyremoved and asking you to articulate your actual thoughts in a coherent way.

      • FoolishFool [she/her]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        With the Dems, there's always an excuse.

        They would've found their House versions of those 2, as many as they needed.

        If the Dems actually cared about these things, they would've codified them a long time ago and not waited until after Roe was overturned.

        • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          2 years ago

          The Dems being shit is no excuse to not vote for them, when, as I’ve said, the opponents are literally fascists. The Dems can be as useless and neoliberal shills as possible, but they’re not the ones taking away trans and gay and women’s rights.

          • FoolishFool [she/her]
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            This is just the "lesser of 2 evils" argument, one everyone here is already thoroughly familiar with, and either doesn't agree with it or does.

            Odds are, no one here's minds are gonna be changed either way at this point, especially not with condescending "grow up" language.

      • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Biden was gonna put forth an abortion bill and Manchin and Sinema (who’re in the Senate btw not the House) would’ve done jack shit against it.

        on what possible basis are you making that claim. Biden litterally had the house and the senate and didn't do this.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        I doubt they would have passed meaningful abortion legislation even if they kept the House. As someone else pointed out, they already have the House and still haven't done it. Why was that not all they were focused on since the Supreme Court decision was leaked?

        That said, it's easier to criticize electoral politics when you vote (so libs can't turn the conversation around and blame you) and when Democrats are in power but ineffective. For someone real invested in voting, radicalization happens when they win but don't get the result they wanted.

        • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          2 years ago

          Exactly! I was turned when I wanted Sanders and the Clintons and the Dem establishment literally fucked him over (while the Republicans let Trump win because the capitalists knew he wasn’t gonna do shit against them).

  • TheOwlReturns [comrade/them]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Damn if only Democrats used their majority in the house and senate over the last two years to do it but failed because they don't actually want to pass it or anything like it, just hold it over your head to make you dance.

  • ElGosso [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    You just like starting fights around here don't you lol

    • SacredExcrement [any, comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Agreed, this is just cringy shit

      Voting matters, Biden said he will do things!

      Every fucking lib president in my lifetime has said they will do M4A and some bullshit about abortion being codified

      None of them did anything, except Obama and his insane healthcare plan that he completely caved on.

      bUt He SaId

      I don't give a fuck what president Joe "Crime "Hyde "Urban Jungles" Amendment" Bill" Biden fucking said unless he said he was gonna go swallow a 12 gauge. Shaming people for not voting for useless libs is stupid; we have no idea how to get to leftism, but it sure isn't going to happen via rigged bougie electoralism.

      Ed: Also this website has like 20k members, not all of whom are even active; if everyone here somehow lived in the right spots and voted, some libs STILL lose. Somebody needs to grandstand elsewhere.

  • Cherufe [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    I will never vote for democrats in ANY election because I live in Chile

    • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      2 years ago

      As I replied to @MeatfuckerDidNothing:

      You still vote for the dems even if they’re centrists. Because the opponents are literally FASCISTS. Right now, YOU are the one who’s letting fascists control the government because of your hatred of centrists and neoliberals. Even the Soviet Union allied with the US and UK when it came time to fight the Nazis. Why won’t you do the same?

        • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          2 years ago

          Yeah 100%. Capitalism is the fuel that creates Fascism to defends itself. The Nazis came in power (rather than the socialists :ussr-cry:) because of capitalism. But you still vote for the neoliberals against the fascists. The USSR didn’t declare war on the entire world during WW2. They allied with the capitalists to defeat the fascists.

      • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Right now, YOU are the one who’s letting fascists control the government because of your hatred of centrists and neoliberals.

        that's just like...not how voting works. i did vote for dems btw, in races that ended up being close and important for senate and gubernatorial positions. but WE, we the voters that is, have little to do with who controls the government because we don't pick who runs and we don't have power to control what they do when they get there. in 2020, dems had a better position than they currently do, and yet did very little. they could have protected abortion before it was overturned, they could have pressured rbg to resign before she died in office, etc. etc. etc. if it weren't joe manchin and kristin sinema being the individual embodiments of a block to popular policy, they would simply be leading a slightly larger cohort of right-wing dems that would form an anti-anything-good voting bloc. how much do they need to have the senate by for you to not make excuses for them?

        • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
          hexagon
          ·
          2 years ago

          I 100% get your point and agree with it. Dems, as an institution, are bad. So are the Republicans. My whole point is that the Republicans, as seen by recent anti-trans, anti-gay and anti-abortion bills in their states, are gonna sink to levels of depravity the Dems wouldn’t.

          Sure, maybe, Biden lied and even if we won the House, he wouldn’t have put forth an abortion bill. I think he would’ve but I can understand why people think otherwise.

          BUT if you have a Dem House, you won’t have anti-trans and anti-abortion bills either! Which is a distinct possibility in a republican government. Maybe not right now, but in 2024?

          • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            BUT if you have a Dem House, you won’t have anti-trans and anti-abortion bills either! Which is a distinct possibility in a republican government.

            that's the rub. this is a very short-sighted thing to struggle with us about ideologically. you're absolutely right, pretty much the best median behavior you can expect from a dem-led governing coalition is a bit of respite from active harm, and that's if you're not black or an immigrant or someone in a part of the third world that we're currently bombing. when dems refuse to go solve people's problems, it's simply a matter of time before the fascist flood gates burst. spending energy thinking about, much less arguing about, voting and who's doing it hard enough is energy that you're not using figuring out how to build power for when the dem "do no harm by doing nothing at all, probably" coalition collapses terminally. it doesn't really matter whether they would or wouldn't end up trying to put out an abortion bill. if they did, it's only so little respite from the very real reactionary material forces that are building up as the internal stability of the imperial system breaks down as it is.

            • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
              hexagon
              ·
              2 years ago

              That’s a good point. My idea is not to just vote and keep voting for the Dems in hopes that things never get worse. You vote for the Dems and then use that time of respite to build up organisations for socialism and solidarity.

      • JuryNullification [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        But I did vote for them. :i-voted: If they wanted more people to vote for them, they should have run better candidates.

            • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
              hexagon
              ·
              2 years ago

              Yeah as I’ve said countless times. Dems are bad. But they’re not fascists. So you side with the Dems against the fascists.

              • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                ·
                edit-2
                2 years ago

                But they’re not fascists

                Approximately one million Iraqis, 2 million prison slaves, an indeterminate number of concentration camp tenants and an ever-growing list of police murder victims would like a word with you

                  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    Sure, but now we're at the point of splitting hairs about who at the table are nazis and who at the table are simply arming, funding and refusing to hinder the nazis while also doing nazi shit

                • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
                  hexagon
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  Iraq happened under Bush. But yeah, I get your point. Dems are bad. They’re capitalists. But just look at the anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-abortion legislation passing around in Rep states right now. Do you want that nationally?

                  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    2 years ago

                    Iraq happened under Bush

                    And the useless complicit fucks in the democratic party all voted for it. The president isn't king, I was very young at the time but I still remember every adult around me, even the so-called peace lovers, calling for the middle east to be nuked. I refuse to allow anyone to memory hole this.

                    But just look at the anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-abortion legislation passing around in Rep states right now. Do you want that nationally?

                    The last several decades have demonstrated comprehensively that what I want does not matter, as I am not in a position of power. You should instead be asking that question to the useless complicit fucks in the democratic party, because it would appear from their complete spineless inaction, nauseating displays of performative helplessness and seemingly pathological urge to please the fascists with needless 3/5ths-style compromises that they do, in fact, want that nationally.

                    • LiberalSocialist [any,they/them]
                      hexagon
                      ·
                      2 years ago

                      That’s a good point. The Dems are, I guess, as bad as the Reps on a lot of issues. But I don’t see any issue where they’re worse while there are plenty where the Reps are just outright evil.

                      • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        2 years ago

                        They don't need to be worse themselves when they just hand control over to the fascists at every opportunity. If there was a serial killer around, and I took people's donations promising to keep them safe, only to hand the gore-streaked maniac their housekeys as soon as I saw him, I would rightfully be convicted as an accomplice.

  • regularassbitch [she/her]
    ·
    2 years ago

    you are always posting the dopiest shit and it's getting harder and harder to believe you're not doing it on purpose