My post history pretty clearly shows I'm a China Good, Death to America poster. Despite that, I think we need to recognize that the cultural liberalism of the west has been an enormous boon to the queer community. This is simply an area where China Bad and it's due to a variety of very old cultural factors. The rest of the world is just more conservative on gender on sexuality. Ironically, of course, these sexually conservative attitudes were largely imported by the west during colonialism. But that's where things are at now and we need to recognize the reality.
Just to add to this, a lot of people associate with the left is deeply contextual with the underlying historical conditions of a particular group of people and a given country.
In a lot of eastern european formerly communist countries, there are multiple left wing democratic socialist or social democratic parties that differ greatly on issues of social liberalism (both on issues like LGBT rights, but also on issues such as national identity, immigration, law and order, ect). Hell, the history of pro immigration sentiment within the western left stems from the fact that in a lot of countries the majority of people there aren't indigenous.
Social liberalism is still fundamentally rooted in enlightenement ideals that liberal democracy and modern capitalism arose from, that doesn't make it bad, but it deeply relates to social changes rooted in individualism rather than broader collective class action that defines the left in other parts of the world.
Marxism is also fundamentally rooted in those enlightenment ideals
I'm not disagreeing here, but socialism in China is also deeply rooted in confuscian ideals which are very distinct from enlightenment ones.
Confucian ideals are fundamentally reactionary, I think. Completely focused on the dominance of the patriarchy as societal structure
You win this round anarkiddies but your CIA ghost writers are gonna slip up soon enough
I wish I was getting that sweet alphabet $$$, I do this dumb anarkiddie shit for free
Good question. I looked into it, they seem actually as of now, about as progressive in LGBT rights as Japan and better than most other Asian countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Asia
Still not enough imho. Sidenote: pretty interesting that israel actually has the best gay rights in the region eh? Even though they're doing hella imperialist colonizing and war crimes? really makes u thonk
Yeah, that's exactly it. My thoughts are that the western culture was accidentally forced into doing the right thing with gay rights when they can profit it off it (see: allowing gay marriage when it got popular, and putting on rainbows on all their products but still not paying for gender transitional care), and that equality has been mined to show how free we are. Just like with how MLK is celebrated in the US - streets named after him, it's a holiday and so on - but then we still imprison black people by the millions and do nothing about police violence. Gay rights in a country seems to mostly just indicate the amount of gay rights and not much else. Obviously they are still very important! I'm gay nonbinary so i care pretty deeply about this lol.
are u... are u defending imperialism on the basis of said imperialist country having more LGBT rights? Also, China has worker protections for LGBT people that are stronger than worker protections in pretty much every capitalist country.
i said both that China needs more LGBT rights and that Israel is doing war crimes, i'm not sure where you got "imperialism good" from my statement
"pretty interesting that israel actually has the best gay rights in the region eh? Even though they’re doing hella imperialist colonizing and war crimes? really makes u thonk" this statement makes it seem like ur defending an imperialist country on the basis of it having more LGBT rights, is that not true? if it isn't, it's not clear at all what you meant.
literally just read 2 comments down fam, i explained how gay rights in capitalist countries are just the woke porky emoji and don't indicate anything more than woke capitalism
yea good call out, didn't read the whole thread i ont really enjoy reddit browsing. that's my b
it's okay comrade, lol. I get it and can see why you read it that way. I was trying to be satirical like it was some impossible mystery to solve but i don't think that came across that way
I appreciate what China is doing in regards to building socialism but yeah most everything else seems fucked. I have a hard time defending China.
As a black lgbt person I’m like 99% certain China would be a nightmare. Probably less of a nightmare than the USA tho.
Chinese person here and yup, it mostly comes from consuming American media as far as I can tell but older Chinese people usually do not have positive opinions of black people. I've had a hard time convincing elderly Chinese Maoists who lived through WW2 and are as anti-imperialist as any western leftist that black people aren't lazy(and are the fucking backbone of our horrific economy).
Does the party have an official position on anti-black racism? Does it figure in the propaganda?
Like USSR was all in on decrying US racism. By the time I was eight I had to learn like three poems about oppression of black workers by capitalist America...
Yeah they do, in the recent instance of African tenants getting evicted in Guangzhou during COVID, it was the result of local government laws on housing and testing, but also racism, to some extent. Once the central govt became aware if the issue and promised to resolve it, they did so, and it no longer became a story.
China's got a way to go in terms of the people's perception of race (partly because of Western attitudes and partly because, due to economic circumstances, many of its people are still not as exposed to foreigners as you or I have), but the Central govt is not inflaming racial hatred, rather, I think they have a more mild anti-racist view on the matter. They're reporting a lot on the BLM protests too if I remember correctly, and it's mostly positive coverage supporting the protests I think
Guangzhou has a very visible African minority population, probably the largest of any mainland city. China like the rest of Asia is super colorist, and there's a lot of inter-ethnic developing world one-upmanship that goes on. So yes, many Han Chinese people are uncriticly racist--but not to the same systemic level in any way towards black people as what we see in the US. Anecdotally, black people often have wildly different experiences travelling in China, and often have the feeling of being treated more as a foreigner than as a black person, if you get what I mean.
Yeah, there's definitely some culturally conservative views in China about black people and homosexuality. It's not nearly as terrible as America (I don't think you'll get shot or lynched or anything) it's just more of a pervasive non-understanding. I think that's something that can be fixed though. China's pretty good at doing the propagandizing and if the party decided to adopt a platform that's more accepting of homosexuality, I feel like most people would fall in line pretty quickly. It's weird that that hasn't happened though. One legit criticism of China that you don't actually hear a lot about in American news.
Your phrasing is problematic. It's "Chinese person" not "Chinese" and there's no "average Chinese person" for the billion people who live there. Just say there's a lot of racist Chinese people.
Nobody is trying to dehumanize Americans and Americans don't mind being called Americans. People are trying to dehumanize Chinese people and 'a chinese', 'the blacks', 'the gays' etc have a historic use as an othering slur.
If you look at my comment history like the lib you are you will see that I am quite against the Chinese government. Learn to take criticism.
Wtf am I enabling here? Just don't profile Chinese people with "average" stereotyping and don't use othering language. I'm condemning your racism you goof.
I've explained why multiple times. I'm done here. I'm an anarchist. I'm just not a racist
Yeah this guy is suspect. He also made some joke about Joe Biden promising to pardon Bill Cosby to get the black vote. Like, poor taste dude.
no secret police, it's all out in the open: https://hexbear.net/modlog
The bit where they bring up the Yellow Turban Rebellion is by far the worst part too. Imagine if I brought up some ancient Roman war crime in the same way.
It's not hard to make a small edit to your comment and move on. Grow up. I condemned the Chinese Government a bunch of times today without using racist language. It's not hard.
The "two things can be bad at once" argument is also applied to racist language. I'm a queer anarchist. The fact that you've double downed so hard on such a minor problematic mis-phrasing makes you look like a racist.
No I wouldn't have whined at all because that's true. "The average chinese is extremely racist" is a garbage statement
It's really not, did you slip through the time stream from 1970 to now? No one has used a nationality as a noun in ages.
It means either you don't speak English natively and you think saying 'a Chinese' is fine because of whatever 1960s textbook you were taught out of and we need to tell you that's wrong, or you're a native English speaker and you're a fucking idiot. You tell us.
didn’t handle the yellow turban rebellion well
Wait, what lasting effects did an uprising like two thousand years ago had on Chinese culture?
Kenya has had a recent trend of Chinese owned restaurants with “no blacks allowed” policies... in Kenya...
Afaik a lot of this is happening again in context to covid. Same as this: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/05/china-covid-19-discrimination-against-africans .. the problem is, its hard to find a good source regarding the ssa region and i cant remember where i read about it.
The situation in africa is also complicated regarding racism on the side of chinese workers, especially in the corona crisis, as black workers are seen as dirty and disease spreading and are treated accordingly. (There actually is a source for that, but i'll have to search for it again, as i didnt write it down)
Edit: looks like the situation for all black people in china is like that: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/05/china-covid-19-discrimination-against-africans
Human rights watch is a NED funded CIA cut out, not credible on anything
That's why I get an my information about China from the unbiased Epoch Times!
/s obviously
lol, falun gong, and victims of communism are clearly the go to source for understanding Chinese society /s
I love that they have a literal swastika in their logo, but Wikipedia doesn't mention that they're Nazis until like paragraph 8.
Which sources would you accept? Because this problematic is well documented..
you re-stating hrw talking points doesn't make it anymore real.
Theres a diplomatic complaint by a lot of countries of the ssa region* regarding treatment of their citizens in china and thats not based on hrw..
*Edit
do those diplomats take money from the US state department? have you looked at their connections to the US military industrial complex? the NGO complex?, etc etc
These diplomats also take money from chinese sources in a lot of cases, as china is way more economically active in the region, they wouldnt risk this economic support over mere american propaganda.
Edit: misread your message, i'll look into it..
But you dont really know do you? you just did a google search and found the first thing that confirmed your bias.
Doing a 5 minut google and taking the first link you find isn't serious research on a subject like china which is heavily propagandised in the west. The sheer scope of western propaganda apparatus eludes many people and its easy to get conned..
Edit: also just want to point out, im not saying theres no racism in China, most cultures have some element of racism in them, and even for nations that have begun socialist projects (or claim to depending on how you view china) it can take decades to erode the barrieres between people. My problem was purely your sourcing which revealed a lack of understanding about the foe you are up against (western hegemony and its virtue signaling)
I didnt link the first thing confirming my bias, i was searching for the source i remembered for my claim regarding treatment of ssa citizens in the ssa region by chineses workers. And i thought i could link hrw on a well documented topic. You not giving me sources you'd accept doesnt help at all btw. Just tell me that you dont want your bubble burst, im trying to have a honest dicussion, no need for the aggression dude..
Edit: thats why im asking which sources you'd accept on this, so i can base it on these, i know thst there is a lot of misinformation regarding china, but its not only by western media, also by chinese media.
Edit: thats why im asking which sources you’d accept on this, so i can base it on these, i know thst there is a lot of misinformation regarding china, but its not only by western media, also by chinese media.
Note, that even chinese language media can be owned by capital interest aligned with US imperialists, I know that these are not easy satisfying answers and I can't really give you a list of approved outlets (cause so many are tied to western capital and its imperialist cooperators), typically its follow the money, research the source, find the counter arguments, its not a 5 minut job, its hours and days.
Okay, yeah i know its really complicated to find out the underlying political agenda. And i honestly just dont have the time to check every source this indepth. I thought that maybe you have already done the analysis on some media outlets, so that there would be some known to be atleast somewhat acceptable.
Soo .. idk, shall i try to find some more sources? I know of the official diplomatic complaints though and imo, based on how much chinese investion money is flowing into the complaining countries, it would be unreasonable for these governments to issue complaints without a proper reason. There may honestly also be a framework of competitive elites at place in some of the complaining countries, that would make us influence into these complaints more likely again, but i cant find a concrete list on what the countries are exactly rn (so i could check these countries' characteristics).
not trying to be aggressive, apologies if it comes off that way
Okay, no worries then, it came off like that a bit, but that may also be on me..
Tbh I think it's time to just lean into it. It's vernacular now. Plus there's a highly upvoted anarkiddies comment above
Yeah it's stupid and has lost the original meaning of Tankie, but idk it seems like a hopeless battle. It's up to us to be based af despite reactionary slander, I honestly think that's all we can do
Because it's a slippery slope towards Gay Space Communism.
It's what I want. I won't speak for anyone else.
It's worth noting that people in China approve of gay marriage at about the same rate as Americans .
I expect it will be legalized sometime in the next few years.
I would also like to point out that the United States didn't actually legalize it through legislation. It was done via a court decision, and a bunch of libs jumped on the bandwagon afterwards.
I also have a huge problem with the way a lot of leftist discuss this issue, and their inability to separate our sometimes very reactionary culture from ideology, turning us into a hivemind. Change takes time and there is a lot of activism working to make things better. Hinging your opinion on us and on your own imperial projects on this is silly and dehumanizing.
I don't think this particularly answers the question though, or at least what I think it's asking. It's about why a party nominally committed to achieving communism is keen to implement sexuality-based hierarchies, not whether the population as a whole is homophobic (though I see why that is obviously relevant)
I wasn't trying to answer that question (I don't know why they haven't), just showing that it's not that the people there are just especially homophobic as some others in the thread are claiming.
But if I had to guess I'd say it's probably because attitudes have changed relatively recently and that it can take a while for that to translate into material social progress. Cuba had a lot of institutional homophobia in the past, but now their new constitution explicitly forbids discrimination on the basis of sexuality and gender identity, and they're in the works of legalizing gay marriage.
Its strange. A lot of Asian countries are more accepting of trans people than gays. I know a Chinese trans lady and she was pretty largely accepted. She had one shithead guy discriminate against her but she went to file a grievance and it was taken care of. There's a weird thing in Chinese culture where they think gays are predatory, but that sort of thing doesn't appear to be built up for trans people. From what I've heard, family tends to get angry over you not having a baby (if you don't sperm bank), but society at large is just ignorant to it.
In comparison, I've been discriminated against a lot in America for being trans and everyone just kinda puts their hands up and says 'guess you should pay a lot to get a lawyer and maybe get something done about it'.
Jin Xing is an incredibly famous trans star in China, very popular.
Why do these things "take a year" lol just make a law
single party state law passing go brrr
Some people seem to think china is very reactionary. Luckily for us, they do a lot of polling, so we can find out how true this is. Here is a study from 2016:
Some highlights:
Over 60 % of all age groups think that all sexual and gender minorities are fit for raising children.
38.6 % of post '90s people are strongly against the gender binary.
"Non-minorities generally argue that minorities should be entitled to all types of social services. They reach a particularly high consensus on equal treatment of minorities with regard to economic rights."
While things are obviously not perfect for minorities, we should take care not to dehumanize chinese people when talking about these things. Especially as there seems to be a big propaganda campaing attempting to do so.
The 60 % figure is from Figure 6. There seem to be some contradictions in the study, possibly due to translation errors?
The point I was trying to make was not that China is somehow a socially liberal paradise. I just think it is important to understand that China too is undergoing a cultural process and not somehow essentially conservative.
38.6 % of post '90s people are strongly against the gender binary.
I don't even want to know what that number is throughout the EU and the US.
According to this 49 % of americans of ages 19-29 think "society is not accepting enough of people who don't identify as a man or a woman", which is a much weaker claim than being "strongly against the gender binary".
If what is meant by "post 90's" is zoomers, then probably not that bad. Younger people are way more accepting usually.
The family unit is just as important for nationalism as it is for capitalism
It will be legal by 2050. But really it's pretty dumb that China hasn't decided to legalize gay marriage when most Chinese people want it to be
Especially with their existing concern over population control right? Doesn't allowing gay couples mean less children created and more potentially adopted?
China is currently in a state of precariousness, with the primary contradiction being the inequality between urban and rural.
In that context, it’s understandable, albeit not laudable, that they’ve chosen not to legalise gay marriage. The focus is on stability, and that seems to mean not triggering any culture wars.
That said, there have been victories. LGBT couples can file for voluntary guardianship of one another. There have been court victories. Being gay and trans has been demedicalised. We’ve seen more representation in media in recent years.
One upshot is that, to my knowledge, there aren’t any conservative groups opposing LGBT rights.
But yeah, they should take a cue from Fidel in his later years.
‘Embrace’ is a strong word. We’re still seeing progress; it’s just at a glacial pace.
The above argument isn't about administrative capacity to enact change, they're talking about faith in the government. Governments only accomplish things with the consent of the people who perform the relevant actions, so they have to carefully manage how much they ask of the people they need. China's industrialization project relies on both drastically upsetting the lives of people living in the countryside and the participation of those same people, so that's already a tricky situation.
Now, does that mean that the perfectly just and free of prejudice party decided that the support of the uniquely homophobic countryside after a considered cost-benefit analysis of the need for the countryside's support in industrializing vs the needs of the LGBT community, free of any prejudice minimizing LGBT issues? Lol no.
The comment you are replying to is just another example of class reductionism. Apparently we can't look at idpol while poor people exist 🤷
Remembering a post on here a few days ago where the guy said that he doesn’t understand the need to use the right pronouns for non-binary people because it seems “low priority” in the face of everything else
https://hexbear.net/post/2441
erroneously blamed on latin machismo when in fact it happened in the entire soviet sphere.
I assumed it happened in ML states because (all?) ML states arose from deeply patriarchal agrarian societies.
"Why doesn't China have the same policies that the US has had for like 5 years now"
pointing out any flaws whatsoever about china bad
literally you sound like a chud whenever someone rightfully criticizes America and goes “america bad”.
we should learn to not be blinded by ideology just because China is our team
