this stems from another conversation on this site.
a commenter used the pronoun "they" because they didn't know the gender. Commenter could have looked at an inactives users profile to see the pronouns were she/her, but they didn't.
So the question is: is it wrong to use pronoun "they" when you simply don't know or needed to know the gender? I was told that "liberals" use it aggressively/offensively to trans people, but most liberals i know aren't smart enough to know about pronouns and how to use them properly.
I've been using "they" to admit gender ignorance all the fuckin time so im just trying to see if im wrong or not. Because ive never heard of this before. and i thought this site had told me everything by now lol
edit: thank you all for the comments. ill certainly try to remember to check pronouns of inactive accounts before i talk about them, but we need to be able to debate from a reasonable position and jumping to "HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY YOU LIB" isn't going to do shit. Lenin created schools to educate workers, Hexbear is our school. and i fucking love this school.
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It depends on the context imo
If they know your pronouns but insist on saying the wrong one even after being reminded then yeah they're being a shithead.
Otherwise it's just a polite way of being like "IDK your pronouns please feel free to tell me"
the only thing that happened here is someone didnt click a link to an inactive users profile to see the gender first. which is nothing in my eyes. someone defaulting to a neutral ignorance and admitting it shouldnt be offensive.
i don't think its offensive, you have to use some pronoun when the gender isn't known and 'they' is considered gender neutral. I think its offensive when someone deliberately uses it despite knowing their pronouns.
I think its offensive when someone deliberately uses it despite knowing their pronouns.
for sure, and that's not what happened here.
In my friend group, the one cis guy (we're working on it) kept defaulting to they for all of us for a couple months cause we all basically transitioned at the same time lol just 5 people newly using she, he, they, and his poor brain couldn't keep up. I didn't give him a hard time about it and he eventually got it sorted.
? Or do you mean in some way identifiably a trans person? Like they have the trans flag or something?I don't actually know, we just have trans variants of many emojis.
That's 100% understandable, and there's a huge difference between being understanding of someone struggling in a context like that, vs not bothering to click a link to verify before throwing up your hands and acting like it's unknowable. I also assume you knew the person well enough to know he was actually trying, which doesn't often apply online.
and that's my other point: the words versus the intent(especially on the internet where words have no tone). Pronouns are trickier territory than racial slurs.
Which is exactly why we should be more aware of using someone's correct pronouns when possible, to avoid misunderstandings.
ok yea that could be a bit much at first haha. i could understand even more if they knew everyone before transition. i dont have any long time friends that transitioned, its mostly people ive met recently so that makes it easier. if my long time best friends transitioned i would call them "he" on accident for sure.
Wholesome. I have a learning curve for friends changing pronouns and whenever I do it wrong I say "fuck" and correct myself.
libs definitely use the They pronoun as a minimum of performative solidarity instead of seeking to understand someone's gender identity or having it be low on their Priority List
imo: when talking in the abstract about someone or something, it's fine.
When a person is in the conversation, use their pronouns. In the scenario who is the object of a conversation has a name like TransComrade, you should do the diligence of seeing if you can find their pronouns. In that sort of scenario, it's clear that the person's pronouns matter (they're identifying themselves as trans! their gender identity is clearly a very important thing and should be respected!)
If you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum of due diligence to check a hexbear user's pronouns before discussing them, I don't know what to tell you. In cases where you have no easy way of finding out someone's pronouns, sure, use they/them, but refusing to put in the bare modicum of effort when our pronouns are right on our profile is lib shit.
i dont even know if they saw the link to the profile or not, but if admitting ignorance or trying to be as neutral as possible is lib shit, then we're just an echo chamber that won't accomplish anything. Confronting everyone from the most left position possible isn't going to do shit.
The correct response in that case would be "my bad, let me fix it" and then fixing it, not going on the defensive because people who are sensitive to that kind of thing are justifiably upset.
lmao bein a woke lib who is still participating in gender coercion is a really "funny" bit. their kid is gonna come out to them in 12 years and they're gonna be like "darling it's really insensitive of you to appropriate transfem experiences like that. now come on, we're late for soccer practice."
I don't think anyone would fault you for using the information you currently have available, even if it might possibly be outdated. And if someone happens to know updated information, a quick correction is all it would take.
And thinking to check a profile for pronouns is now something you can try to be aware of, and do better with.
I do wish you would use hir correct (as far as we know) pronouns now that you have been corrected, though.
i never interacted with tc69 but other people were using she/her so if i had a reason to participate in that other conversation i would have carried on with those pronouns, but maybe those were made after the user this post is sortof about made comment.
i've never clicked on someone's profile and i'm not going to start, i didn't even know we had profile pages and especially with the scuffed accessibility standard preventing links from opening in new tabs I think clicking onto a new page and losing track of your place in a conversation is enough of a competing accessibility to rise above "bare minimum", as someone else put it.
maybe userpings or links to whatever the fuck a profile is should have the pronounce in them
That's completely fair and valid. It would definitely be helpful to have pronouns added to pings/profile links in the name of accessibility.
at this point, there is a weird trend where accounts newer than 3 months old think it's horrible, and 3 year old accounts are ok with it. so that's at least interesting. most people here seems to agree with you, but a few new users take offense to it. We're not going to convince people to join our side if you choose to argue from the most leftist side possible at all times, a side that maybe 5% of the population can understand.
i keep saying this, but please don't be a parody of ourselves. shit's bad enough as it is.
Yeah I don't put a ton of stock in account age. I have shitty takes too no doubt. And I took a huge break (funny enough largely because of the user in question). But I am trying my best not to be a lib and do praxis and care for comrades in all their spaces and that's about the best I got.
Yeah I don't put a ton of stock in account age.
im trying not to, but the trend is certainly odd.
But going to "HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY" is just being TC69 and trying to keep people away from HexBear and therefore we can't change anyones mind. Like, do you want progress or not? It's not easy from our side but it has to be done.(and this only applies to being online. if i could throw every transphobe into a literal pit, i would)
Honestly this reeks of defensiveness. We aren't trying to crucify you we are trying to correct your behavior, you've got to examine why you're so committed to not being wrong instead of learning because that attitude is the opposite of scientific socialism.
Also I've been here since the start and never been banned, I'm just into opsec.
Also about the perception of people attacking you. Trans women being de-gendered with they/them is a super common microaggression. People are justifiably upset even if you initially didn't do anything wrong, you've got to learn that you exist in an information system larger than your self knowledge where you will cause harm and people will react negatively to it because that is the appropriate reaction without attaching any morality to that.
This thread is so disingenous, it's unbelievable. It's entire orgin is based on the fact that the OP came to the defense of someone who misgendered TC69 and this thread is just some weird backdoor to bash her. It's really petty.
Attacking people for innocuous(at worst) terms is a great way for us to not be taken seriously.
They've been writing things similar to this sentence over the course of 2 threads and it's such nonsense. It paints a completely inaccurate picture of the site and the situation.
ill certainly try to remember to check pronouns of inactive accounts before i talk about them
Sarcastic responses like this just prove what I'm saying is true.
It's not like they're going to respond to it either, they blocked me lol
This is the correct summary of events. The kind TC69 would have banned OP.
it's very context dependent, but many transphobes do use it as a socially acceptable way to misgender trans people. if you actually don't know, saying they is fine. the problem is when you don't even care.
Actually I can't see anyone's pronouns on mobile. Voyager doesn't support it, even if I click their profile. I hope it gets patched soon
In the context of Hexbear dot gov, where everyone’s pronouns are listed and I mean EVERYONE’s
in this case, the pronoun wasn't presented to them directly because the person being discussed wasn't commenting. they would have to find the profile or the profile link and check it. forcing everyone to do all research before going neutral is silly to me.
yea that's where it spawned from. Attacking people for innocuous(at worst) terms is a great way for us to not be taken seriously.
im too big of a airheaded bimbo to remember pronouns so i try to avoid referring to people or use they/them. obviously i dont like being referred to as they/them, i prefer she/her, but in a space with many trans people its best to avoid potential friendly fire and i accept they/them use in that limited context
if they know your preferred pronoun and do it on purpose, that's fucked. but we need a way for people to admit ignorance and/or not offend anyone. "They" is the nice middleground. Every chud could just say "they" for the rest of time and in my view that would be huge.
There is way more power in admitting to being stupid than being a know it all. We should embrace people who are like "ah fuck i don't know and that's ok." They have to accept our pronouns, we have to accept they are 15 years(or more) years behind us. Id like to throw all shitheads into the
but it's probably slightly unrealistic. Lenin had schools to educate people, HexBear should be considered a school for chuds until the person has been determined unsaveable. Re-education is good.nah its mostly on a remembrance basis in our lgbt center. we generally just do they/them when in a place of ignorance. obviously in cishet places im she/her because i pass and am kinda a stereotypical she/her. i regularly forget faces and names all the time... it makes me sad.
oh ok that makes sense. in real life there is way more layers to this of course. on the internet we're all just reading words with no tone or emotion in them and that was the main issue for me here.
oh yeah nah on the internet it can be right next to your name, if they fuck it up eat their brains
It's interesting to hear people's thoughts. I didn't really considered that it could be taken as offensive.
I typically refer to pretty much everyone as they. I really just avoid gendered language. Doesn't matter if you are someone I recently met or my dad.
I think it's considered a microaggression when it's used by less-than-well-meaning libs (often parents of trans teens who don't respect their child's chosen pronouns) who think nobody will notice they've "beat the system" avoiding misgendering by they/theming. There's also a contingent of the trans community that prefer strict adherence for themselves to the gender binary and are rather sensitive when it comes to discussions of being non-binary or "dismantling the gender binary". Because of these factors, and more, some people outright reject they/them as general all-purpose pronouns, especially so if their preferred pronouns were previously listed/discussed/etc
Edit: I've heard weaponizing they/them is more of a thing on TERF island but I don't know enough to speak on that
Because of these factors, and more, some people outright reject they/them as general all-purpose pronouns, especially so if their preferred pronouns were previously listed/discussed/etc
i totally understand it if pronouns were discussed. but just to outright reject it as a way to admit ignorance is just taking it too far in my opinion. we have to have a way of admitting "i don't know. There is a shitload of things in this world that people on HexBear should be offended by(and rightfully so), but if we take it too far we won't be taken seriously. we're trying to drag society to the left by an inch with every pull. we need to have a way for people to admit they just don't know or understand something. Those are people worth saving. Know-it-alls are pretty much worthless. We're all stupid in some way(s). Microaggression is a weird term though, it sounds like someone just looking for any thing to be offended by. Macroaggressions concern me the most.
There's also a contingent of the trans community that prefer strict adherence for themselves to the gender binary and are rather sensitive when it comes to discussions of being non-binary or "dismantling the gender binary".
I hate those people and their "I can't be transphobic because I'm trans" so much. I'm glad you confirmed that they exist and I'm not delusional
I believe this issue essentially stems from the fact that the user's profile was linked in the conversation, but another user didn't bother to click it to check their pronouns.
It was literally in the post the user was directly responding to.
that wasn't bad faith. at least one other person suggested userlinks also contain our pronouns, and a few others agreed with us.
the accessibility compliance tool the devs use is flawed and falsely fails some implementation of links opening in new tabs, which means we have to do 3 times as many operations (i don't have a middle mouse button) to get to the content of a link or forget and the back button doesn't return us to the comment we were reading so i've been trained by the ux to not click on links in comments
I use they for cis people. I hope the English language completely de-genders at some point, in the same way that Finnish only has "hän". I'm also incredibly socially awkward so defaulting to they for everyone frees precious mental capacity to act like talking comes naturally to me
i use it all the damn time in my help desk tickets. even if the name is "Tom" i put they. i hope they pick up on it one day lol.
Kinda hypocritical to yell at libs for refusing to read short works about communism before criticizing it, and then turn around and refuse to click a link to check someone's pronouns before writing several paragraphs about them.
I was speaking in a general sense, but I appreciate the callout.
Using "they" has always been acceptable when you don't know a person's pronouns afaik. English isn't my first language, but I think it can also be used interchangeably? Like you can swap between he and they for example? I don't know, would need some clarification.
I think it's fair to expect that you check a users pronouns when responding directly. I also think it's fair to forget doing that sometimes. There is a tendency to assume the worst of people here, so instead of assuming someone forgot pronouns or whatever, it is instead assumed that the person is a transphobe using a subtle dogwhistle.
I don't think it should be expected that one checks pronouns of a user one isnt replying directly to, but when informed of having used wrong pronouns then I think it should be fair to expect that they are edited to the right ones. If one has a history of using wrong pronouns for a specific user, then it gets sus.It seems you're referring to a specific interaction, would you mind linking it?
The missing context and links are:
Defending using the wrong pronouns when people aren’t around anymore or are controversial. (specifically TransComrade69)
https://hexbear.net/comment/3889674yes, how dare that person(who commented above) not click the profile link and check out what a long inactive and once problematic admin preferred, instead of defaulting to "i don't know." What an egregious crime.
https://hexbear.net/modlog?page=1&userId=3333
The correct response is “Thank you for correcting me, I’ll edit the correct pronouns in”. Not “I’m leaving the wrong pronouns in anyways because I didn’t know and actually you’re an asshole for correcting me and expecting me to check a trans person’s pronouns if I don’t know them.”
edit: The above is all about OP being disingenuously vague and not you.
Defending using the wrong pronouns when people aren’t around anymore or are controversial.
Yes we agree, that is controversial, where have I said anything else? I said that I just don't think it should be expected you go look up a user that's not present in a discussion to doublecheck that you use that users correct pronouns. When you're informed of your mistake you should fix it. If you're not aware of a persons pronouns, then user "they" is the norm, it's not wrong.yes, how dare that person(who commented above) not click the profile link and check out what a long inactive and once problematic admin preferred, instead of defaulting to "i don't know." What an egregious crime.
What are you quoting from me here? I don't get it? I agree that when you're informed of the correct pronouns you should use them, and fix your wrongly used onesI'm sorry, I thought you were quoting me.
I assume this was you giving me the link to the situation they were speaking of? It just doesn't really seem to have anything to do with this question, weird vagueposting by OPYeah, that wasn’t about you, that is the missing context from OP. It’s vagueposting to excuse defending using the wrong pronouns for specific trans people. Of course they/them for unknown people is fine and best.
Yeah I got a bit confused by the formatting, I'm sorry.
You are right that that is weird vagueposting, thanks for providing the context that OP didn't.
Glad to hear they/them is acceptable when one doesn't know. English isn't my first language, so I'm not all up to snuff to your norms.
but trans
"They"
"No more half measures, Walter"
My bad for failing at clarity in the first place.