No concrete evidence in China vs the US government owning up to the fact that they're intentionally doing genocide with Covid in the camps and saying "stop me, I dare you lol".
There is plenty of evidence that shady shit is going on in these camps. Sure the American media might blow it up to run the whole "china bad" narrative, but shady shit's still going on
I dont know how this forum gives china a free pass just because the US is worse.
China side of the coin is that they are dealing with radical islamists, and attempting to dissuade their radicalism with re-education and getting them to a point where they can contribute to the Chinese society
So best case scenario, the kind of shit Canada and Australia pulled with their natives. Cool cool cool.
I don't want to claim I know what's going on, but the language of what I quoted sounds like just the kind of imperial "we know what's good for them" bullshit every country in the world pulls when they're dealing with a politically inconvenient minority population. We'll put the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways.
In an ideal world, what do you suggest we do with religious extremists who wish to harm innocent people? Just kill them, I guess? Because education and re-integration sounds too much like "putting the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways?"
Again, I don't live there and am critically ignorant on Chinese internal politics. I can be pretty sure that they aren't eating Uyghuir babies, but at the same time, I'm also kind of enclined to take claims that boil down to "this entire population group is made up of terrorists" as convenient scapegoating. If their own language describing the situation cannot be distinguished from that of, say, India about muslems in Kashmir, should I give them the benefit of the doubt because they have "socialist" in their country name?
They're operating under the assumption that the "Millions of Uyghurs in camps" claim is correct and not a complete and utter lie. There are a couple dozen facilities about the size of a medium prison or large elementary school. If they're filled like schools, that's 15,000 people at most. If they're filled like American prisons, 50,000.
From the BBC's tour of one, I'd say it's the former. They don't seem packed in like sardines. Meanwhile we have 2.6 million people locked up. Most of them for non-violent offenses or completely made up charges. All being used for slave labor and with a complete disenfranchisement and minimal educational opportunity.
okay but when I see prison camps for 'radical muslims' my first thought isn't "well all right then, carry on.". the CIA are lying liars who lie, and will say whatever best suits their interests at the moment, but that is, on rare occasion, the truth. find one mediocre source, and I'd believe the PRC was pulling this shit.
its just important to remember that the americans are doing it too. there are no good states here.
Like determining if China is good or bad would be a binary decision between absolute good/absolute bad.
It is a bit of a simple analysis of the situation, especially coming from a leftist.
No I get it, I'm just saying that supporting China is kinda important if you don't want to come off as a bougie utopian Marxist.
They're a materialist worker's state that's actually trying to be as non-imperial as possible. They exist in the real world, so they will have to solve real problems and solving a problem is never as pretty as the diagram for solving the problem.
This was more of a dig at utopianism than anything, critical support for China is fine. Just don't go around saying "WELL ACTUALLY THEY'RE IMPERIALIST TOO" because it accomplishes nothing but allowing sinophobia to fester and shutting down discussion on why they're doing what they're doing.
The conversation about China's economic policy can be interesting. Especially discussing if the market liberalisation to strafe crippling sanctions was a good plan. If their self-reliance model works in the modern world. How their foreign investment model differes from neo-liberal imperialist models. Etc.
This specific situation just seems to be overplayed and blown out of proportion.
Sorry I worded it badly, I :100-com: % agree with you, China is mostly good, is not engaging in imperialism(just ie listen to what Varoufakis said concerning concessions made by China buying parts of infrastructure in Greece, compared to western investors - like guaranteeing standing contracts with workers and such) .
I have issues with some things, like concerning the workplace.
With regards to opening up for foreign investment while keeping control of those formed enterprises and thereof resulting intellectual property and technology.
If you think about it, it was a very smart way to industrialize the country in record speed and increase living conditions all around in unseen proportions.
Honestly, it is pretty marvelous, and any leftist should at the least critically support the Chinese.
Absolutely. China is a miraculous state. They learned from all the USSRs mistakes and not only persisted in a hostile world, but thrived. I feel that their position also allowed for the continuation of socialist/communist experiments in the region as well. Vietnam, Laos, and the DPRK would have been sanctioned to death without China being a buffer state between them and the imperialists.
I legit think that China is in the best position to actually rid the world of capitalism. Or at least passively support places that decide to try locally. They won't sanction revolutionary states like everyone else.
Yes, and because they were not too on the nose about progressing communism, the west misread that as less commitment to the cause and in turn thought they were on the same side as the CCP since Deng Xiaoping, when in fact greedy capitalist investment was tricked into handing over tech and resources to China to build them up to a status that they can stand on their own and can if they want to rival the US.
I don't think they really want to do that though(not yet at least), I think their point is to show through their undeniable advances for their peoples how a socialist(aspiring communist) society can be vastly superior in providing for its people and how we have it completely ass backwards on basically anything when it comes to how we organise society.
They're doing a bang up job so far haha. I don't think there's much internal dissent right now, and one of the greatest threats to the CCP would be allowing western educated citizens into the politiboro. Even that is starting to seem less dangerous now. With the west in disarray and students studying overseas rushing back to China as they watch the West make a perfect example of why capitalism can not be allowed to exist.
Amazing how if you generally try to make things better for the people instead of milking them for every last penny, they might actually like you, funny how that works, right?
This is also why the issues created around Xinjiang and HK are drilled so hard by western governments and media, because China cannot be portrayed in an overall good light or it would make it obvious that liberal democracy is not the end all be all. And they fear that very much. For the last 30 years they were always able to say look we tried this communism thing in Russia, didn't work out, was horrible.
But now all of a sudden a rising China appears on the horizon, eradicating poverty and hunger in a population of 1.5 billion, while the US has tens of millions who don't even know how to come up with enough money for adequate food for them and their families. In Germany, a population of about 80 million, we have almost 3 million children growing up in poverty.
It is absurd and everything is on its head, our world is completely wrong.
China, by virtue of existing, serves as a light with which to reveal the contradictions of capitalism. They're literally serving as "the shining city of the hill" that America claims it is.
the ccp is bad and the world would be better off without it.
the american empire is bad and the world would be better off without it.
id be happy to see both burn; to see so many people liberated.
I agree with you when you say you dont trust american media to be objective. Even removing sources paid by the american government, I'm still convinced shady stuff is going on.
There are many first hand accounts of Uighur people who have escaped china and are living in other countries, and these interviews taken by independent journalists.
For example, Vice had a nice documentary on it. Vice is a leftist media outlet right? Inb4 vice isnt real news
Like I agree with you, about how america is using Uighurs as an excuse to criticize china, but dont you think something's still going on?
Jeez why so rude, I'm at work, I'll give you a compilation later if you want. I know posting at work is praxis and all, but I really cant go full on redditor and hunt down sources rn.
Now obviously we can’t debunk every single testimony ( although that doesn’t stop CGTN from trying. But after a certain point, it begins to wear a bit thin.
Let me put it this way: if you gave me the funding of a US intelligence agency, I guarantee you that I could come up with a few dozen people willing to testify to being abducted by aliens, given autism by vaccines, or turned gay by frogs. I’m not saying witness testimonies aren’t important—they are! But if the only testimonies are coming from people on the CIA’s payroll, things begin looking pretty fishy.
Vice is a leftist media outlet right? Inb4 vice isnt real news
I would treat vice with the same amount of scrutiny as any corporate media entity such as NYT.
Here is the ownership breakdown of Vice:
Shane Smith (20%)
The Walt Disney Company (16%)
A&E Networks (20%)
TPG Capital (44%)
Soros Fund Management (10%)
James Murdoch (minority stake)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_Media
Also of note is that one of Vice's co-founders is gavin mcinnes (the founder of Proud Boys) and Bill Maher is an exec producer.
Which is not to say it's not real news but rather it's not "leftist" in the sense that it seriously intends to challenge power/capital.
No concrete evidence in China vs the US government owning up to the fact that they're intentionally doing genocide with Covid in the camps and saying "stop me, I dare you lol".
Exact same picture.
There is plenty of evidence that shady shit is going on in these camps. Sure the American media might blow it up to run the whole "china bad" narrative, but shady shit's still going on
I dont know how this forum gives china a free pass just because the US is worse.
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So best case scenario, the kind of shit Canada and Australia pulled with their natives. Cool cool cool.
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I don't want to claim I know what's going on, but the language of what I quoted sounds like just the kind of imperial "we know what's good for them" bullshit every country in the world pulls when they're dealing with a politically inconvenient minority population. We'll put the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways.
In an ideal world, what do you suggest we do with religious extremists who wish to harm innocent people? Just kill them, I guess? Because education and re-integration sounds too much like "putting the savages in special schools so they will mend their barbarian ways?"
Again, I don't live there and am critically ignorant on Chinese internal politics. I can be pretty sure that they aren't eating Uyghuir babies, but at the same time, I'm also kind of enclined to take claims that boil down to "this entire population group is made up of terrorists" as convenient scapegoating. If their own language describing the situation cannot be distinguished from that of, say, India about muslems in Kashmir, should I give them the benefit of the doubt because they have "socialist" in their country name?
Who said that? Anyone? Ever?
No. No one ever said that of Uighurs in China. Not on this site, not on Reddit, not in China. No human person alive has ever said that.
They're operating under the assumption that the "Millions of Uyghurs in camps" claim is correct and not a complete and utter lie. There are a couple dozen facilities about the size of a medium prison or large elementary school. If they're filled like schools, that's 15,000 people at most. If they're filled like American prisons, 50,000.
From the BBC's tour of one, I'd say it's the former. They don't seem packed in like sardines. Meanwhile we have 2.6 million people locked up. Most of them for non-violent offenses or completely made up charges. All being used for slave labor and with a complete disenfranchisement and minimal educational opportunity.
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Didn't China officially release footage of "vocational centres for deradicalisation"?
Yeah, and that's exactly what it is. It's to stop radical terrorists.
Which situation is more ethical to you:
Yes neither is ideal especially with the exact way China are doing that education, but it's a fuck of a lot better than the alternative.
May I remind everyone the US has already bombed Uyghurs, not in China obviously, but in Afghanistan.
okay but when I see prison camps for 'radical muslims' my first thought isn't "well all right then, carry on.". the CIA are lying liars who lie, and will say whatever best suits their interests at the moment, but that is, on rare occasion, the truth. find one mediocre source, and I'd believe the PRC was pulling this shit.
its just important to remember that the americans are doing it too. there are no good states here.
There definitely are better states. The US is obviously the worst.
"Actually nothing good exists. All existing things are bad and wrong. In order to be good, it has to not exist."
-utopianists
Like determining if China is good or bad would be a binary decision between absolute good/absolute bad.
It is a bit of a simple analysis of the situation, especially coming from a leftist.
No I get it, I'm just saying that supporting China is kinda important if you don't want to come off as a bougie utopian Marxist.
They're a materialist worker's state that's actually trying to be as non-imperial as possible. They exist in the real world, so they will have to solve real problems and solving a problem is never as pretty as the diagram for solving the problem.
This was more of a dig at utopianism than anything, critical support for China is fine. Just don't go around saying "WELL ACTUALLY THEY'RE IMPERIALIST TOO" because it accomplishes nothing but allowing sinophobia to fester and shutting down discussion on why they're doing what they're doing.
The conversation about China's economic policy can be interesting. Especially discussing if the market liberalisation to strafe crippling sanctions was a good plan. If their self-reliance model works in the modern world. How their foreign investment model differes from neo-liberal imperialist models. Etc.
This specific situation just seems to be overplayed and blown out of proportion.
Sorry I worded it badly, I :100-com: % agree with you, China is mostly good, is not engaging in imperialism(just ie listen to what Varoufakis said concerning concessions made by China buying parts of infrastructure in Greece, compared to western investors - like guaranteeing standing contracts with workers and such) .
I have issues with some things, like concerning the workplace.
With regards to opening up for foreign investment while keeping control of those formed enterprises and thereof resulting intellectual property and technology.
If you think about it, it was a very smart way to industrialize the country in record speed and increase living conditions all around in unseen proportions.
Honestly, it is pretty marvelous, and any leftist should at the least critically support the Chinese.
Absolutely. China is a miraculous state. They learned from all the USSRs mistakes and not only persisted in a hostile world, but thrived. I feel that their position also allowed for the continuation of socialist/communist experiments in the region as well. Vietnam, Laos, and the DPRK would have been sanctioned to death without China being a buffer state between them and the imperialists.
I legit think that China is in the best position to actually rid the world of capitalism. Or at least passively support places that decide to try locally. They won't sanction revolutionary states like everyone else.
Yes, and because they were not too on the nose about progressing communism, the west misread that as less commitment to the cause and in turn thought they were on the same side as the CCP since Deng Xiaoping, when in fact greedy capitalist investment was tricked into handing over tech and resources to China to build them up to a status that they can stand on their own and can if they want to rival the US.
I don't think they really want to do that though(not yet at least), I think their point is to show through their undeniable advances for their peoples how a socialist(aspiring communist) society can be vastly superior in providing for its people and how we have it completely ass backwards on basically anything when it comes to how we organise society.
They're doing a bang up job so far haha. I don't think there's much internal dissent right now, and one of the greatest threats to the CCP would be allowing western educated citizens into the politiboro. Even that is starting to seem less dangerous now. With the west in disarray and students studying overseas rushing back to China as they watch the West make a perfect example of why capitalism can not be allowed to exist.
Amazing how if you generally try to make things better for the people instead of milking them for every last penny, they might actually like you, funny how that works, right?
This is also why the issues created around Xinjiang and HK are drilled so hard by western governments and media, because China cannot be portrayed in an overall good light or it would make it obvious that liberal democracy is not the end all be all. And they fear that very much. For the last 30 years they were always able to say look we tried this communism thing in Russia, didn't work out, was horrible.
But now all of a sudden a rising China appears on the horizon, eradicating poverty and hunger in a population of 1.5 billion, while the US has tens of millions who don't even know how to come up with enough money for adequate food for them and their families. In Germany, a population of about 80 million, we have almost 3 million children growing up in poverty.
It is absurd and everything is on its head, our world is completely wrong.
China, by virtue of existing, serves as a light with which to reveal the contradictions of capitalism. They're literally serving as "the shining city of the hill" that America claims it is.
Exactly. :mao-aggro-shining:
Good talk comrade 🇨🇳
Yes, it is always nice to have a productive discussion I have to say. :sankara-salute:
Also helps to organise some thoughts here and there.
the ccp is bad and the world would be better off without it. the american empire is bad and the world would be better off without it. id be happy to see both burn; to see so many people liberated.
I agree with you when you say you dont trust american media to be objective. Even removing sources paid by the american government, I'm still convinced shady stuff is going on.
There are many first hand accounts of Uighur people who have escaped china and are living in other countries, and these interviews taken by independent journalists.
For example, Vice had a nice documentary on it. Vice is a leftist media outlet right? Inb4 vice isnt real news
Like I agree with you, about how america is using Uighurs as an excuse to criticize china, but dont you think something's still going on?
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This is my main gripe as well. I'm open to evidence but every time I ask I get either something that is proven bullshit or nothing at all.
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Jeez why so rude, I'm at work, I'll give you a compilation later if you want. I know posting at work is praxis and all, but I really cant go full on redditor and hunt down sources rn.
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Right right I'm open to more information as well, ffs we're all on chapo for the same reason. And yeah, we can all agree american media is cancer
https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ
This is the vice video I was talking about, theres an interview in there too.
I just said you were rude because some of the things you wrote were offputting and I'm a sensitive boy uwu
Can I ask you to do something for me?
Please watch this video without reading the description until the end, then come back and open the spoiler.
spoiler
Ok, we’ve now established that the US will quite comfortably use atrocity propaganda to shape public opinion against its geopolitical rivals.
Let’s look for evidence of that happening here.
We’d look for things like inconsistencies in testimony.
We’d expect to see a US-controlled apparatus for disseminating these stories .
We’d expect to see non-US controlled international organisations investigating and reporting no concern .
Now obviously we can’t debunk every single testimony ( although that doesn’t stop CGTN from trying. But after a certain point, it begins to wear a bit thin.
Let me put it this way: if you gave me the funding of a US intelligence agency, I guarantee you that I could come up with a few dozen people willing to testify to being abducted by aliens, given autism by vaccines, or turned gay by frogs. I’m not saying witness testimonies aren’t important—they are! But if the only testimonies are coming from people on the CIA’s payroll, things begin looking pretty fishy.
Fuck. Shit man, I hope Washington gets nuked (in minecraft)
That is an excellent way of putting it. Thanks.
I would treat vice with the same amount of scrutiny as any corporate media entity such as NYT.
Here is the ownership breakdown of Vice: Shane Smith (20%) The Walt Disney Company (16%) A&E Networks (20%) TPG Capital (44%) Soros Fund Management (10%) James Murdoch (minority stake)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_Media
Also of note is that one of Vice's co-founders is gavin mcinnes (the founder of Proud Boys) and Bill Maher is an exec producer.
Which is not to say it's not real news but rather it's not "leftist" in the sense that it seriously intends to challenge power/capital.