It's barely even close. Everything that was horrible about Trump was presaged by Bush. He unleashed far more harm on the world than Trump did.
Iraqi dude here confirming this. Half of my family are either dead or scattered around the world because of Bush and his dead dad
The only reason why Trump is getting more hate than Bush is because Bush respected "the institution', it's the one thing liberals are consistent on which is preserving our archaic democracy to remind ourselves that we aren't living in an entirely authoritarian nation, sometimes we get to vote out bad dudes!
The raid the Capitol was genuinely a turning point for liberals, because the sacred electors ballots could have been tarnished by some backwater yokel, a crime that can never been forgiven! Or when the institution was disrespected by Trump supporters moving various office items around Pelosi's office, that simply cannot do!
The persona of Democracy and government is the line the liberals draw in the sand, any other meaningful policy is just used as cannon fodder to make it look like the liberals are doing something for when they are in power.
-7DeadlyFetishes
I agree with everything you said, but I'd also add that Bush gets less hate because everyone in this awful country other than leftists (and tbf, some libertarians too) was all-in on the invasion of Iraq. And going after Bush too hard on that would force them to accept that they had a hand in making it happen, by supporting it at the time. Even now, most Americans aren't sorry about the invasion or recognize the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths as a tragedy. No, they only have vague notions that Iraq was a "failure" and therefore was bad.
I may be off base but reading and rereading this had me confused, and I realized I took it for granted that our friend Bush was W. and not H.W, I had assumed it was 2004 that had the country all-in on invading Iraq until the portraits!
What a fucking existence where I can legitimately confuse two invasions over my lifetime of a distant nation by two presidents who are in fact father and son and America was gorging itself on stars and stripes and just throwing money after money and lives into killing people in the desert Americans would have zero interaction with ever if things ran their course
like really? Is it a joke?
it's dubya, he did the portraits too
but there were a lot of blue no matter who-type libs who were anti-war. though that's indistinguishable from support for the war when you'll still vote for imperialists because they're on your team
There was a significant amount of anti-war movement and Bush hate during his years. Do agree with you though that he has been whitewashed now, but when I grew John Stewart and Steve Colbert built their careers around Bush hate. The GOP floated Comedy Central through the oughts the same way Donald Trump floats every late night host now.
True, but the libs didn't turn against it until a year or two after it became clear it wasn't going to be a quick and painless little invasion. I was involved in anti-war protests in early 2003 and I can tell you, most libs were totally on board with it.
from my POV then the libs I surrounded myself were all against it but would just sigh and go 'blue no matter who' and generally stick their heads in the sand when it came to their team being imperialist warmongers too, and that definitely hasn't changed
and even in the street it was probably occupy-tier libs and not folks concerned with organizing as much as activizing (especially in stark contrast with 99 WTO), curious if that was what you saw first-hand
The only reason why Trump is getting more hate than Bush is because Bush respected "the institution’
Counterpoint: https://m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon No sitting President respects institutions for long. Respecting institutions is for suckers. Institutions exist to fuck you over and take your shit.
Trump's biggest mistake was assuming "concervative" institutions - right wing media, big business, Republican courts, the military - were on his side, rather than just mercenaries on the take. They knifed him and dumped his ass the day after the ink on ACB's confirmation was dry.
Bush never had respect for institutions. He wouldn't be caught dead calling Sean Hannity at 2am, asking for praise. He didn't go running to the FISA courts for permission. He didn't trust the Pentagon to build the case to invade Iraq. He fired every Clinton USA that looked at him crosswise.
Bush shat on institutions. And people loved him for it.
Fuck institutions. All my homies hate institutions.
Or when the institution was disrespected by Trump supporters moving various office items around Pelosi’s office, that simply cannot do!
Why, if I'd been there I would have wagged such a finger at them! How dare they disrespect the sanctity of democracy!
Anyway, nobody gets healthcare and I need to drop some bombs, brb.
Pre-COVID, it was glaringly obvious that Bush was worse and it wasn't particularly close. I think with COVID you can argue that it's close, but Bush was still worse.
Yeah I think Trump has him beat in domestic death toll by quite a bit now
I don't get this argument. People were gonna die no matter what. Would Biden have gone around and blew everyone's nose for them? Trump just played the negligent Republican daddy role. We would've had that with any Republican.
I used to think that early on too, but a little research of mine revealed that even some basic federal guidelines, sharing info from China early on, utilizing the Post Office for mask deliveries, and using OSHA for mask enforcement could have saved tens of thousands by itself. People would have died regardless, but Trump looks like he went out of his way to make sure it was maximum casualties.
that's the comparison to competent technocratic government
now compare to George "Heckuva Job Brownie" Bush and I'm with @AKnightAlone
this is actually a decent radicalization vector for the americans here--if you've got a lib in your life ranting about orange man, ask them about how well dubya handled katrina, or hell even how well bama handled 08 (riskier move, but if you can drill down into the collapse of black and brown homeownership you might strike a nerve)
we'd probably have had a similar curve to the rest of the euro-controlled world where there was a significant curve-flattening in spring/summer but then shit spiked again real bad in october/november
sharing info from China early on
Are we going with the "corona is actually from America" theory?
My new theory I considered earlier last year, but something new hit me:
Who got mega-bux easily in America? Bezos. Corona lockdown was pretty much not even a gamble if you were investing in companies and picked Amazon.
Who makes like 90% of the shit on Amazon? Oh, yeah, that's right... It's those folks that had that military-linked virus lab right around where the outbreak supposedly started.
My earlier thought was that it was engineered in a Chinese lab. Now, I realize there are some beneficial coincidental outcomes for China.
I mean it was obvious it was Bezos from the beginning. Jack Ma was gonna out him but then the CCP stepped in
I'm really, really not trying to sound like a lib here. I'm aware that a hypothetical Hillary/Bernie/Jeb/Biden in his position wouldn't have changed the fact that America was fundamentally unprepared for a global health crisis. That is because of decades (centuries?) of policy and administration.
But I think it's pretty fucking obvious that having a President in office who wasn't actively peddling conspiracy theories would have led to fewer deaths. How many fewer? I don't know. Would somebody else (possibly a failed Trump with his own media network in this scenario) have taken up the anti-covid shit? Of course, it's AMerica. Governors would resist or be inadequate. But the head of the federal government and the loudest mouthpiece in America fought coronavirus regulations at basically every step. Of course it was worse with Trump.
For sure. But is Bush worse than Reagan? That’s a circle I haven’t squared quite yet. Figured this is as good a place to ask as any.
Reagan did more harm to Black Americans but then Katrina came along and evened the score at the tail end of Bush's second term.
I think I give the slight edge to Reagan because he made Dubya possible. Reagan ushered in the conservative era as we know it today, plus he opened the way for Poppy. Dubya was just kinda following the plan those 2 made over the course of 12 years in the white house.
You could argue Reagan is heavily responsible for playing parts in the destabilization of the middle east and areas of central/south america. Throw in the many people who died of AIDS as he literally laughed at professional advice on how to deal with it because he didn't give a shit that blacks and gays were dying. Just one less step for him.
Let's throw in the crack epidemic, the overall ramping of the war on drugs alone is countless lives, and I'm sure I'm missing countless other atrocities that I forgot, or mostly cause I don't know if a brain can hold enough storage to compile all of Reagans atrocities.
And yet https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1352003286652645378?s=19
Trickle-down has fucked up the economy something crazy
Trump killed over 400,000 Americans within a year and also caused countless tens of thousands of deaths in Venezuela, Iran, and Yemen. While obviously Bush caused more wars abroad and more total deaths Trump's massacres is far above average too. I'd also argue that the number of lone wolf white nationalist terrorist attacks have been reaching levels not seen post segregation and is a dangerous trend that while obviously always here in America has only risen under Trump and even around the world, such as in Christchurch.
Both Bush and Trump are seen as some if the stupidest Presidents the USA has ever has but they are also some of the most deadly Presidents this country has had in decades
Agreed, and I'm really fucking tired of the "cool" points incredibly online (mostly white) leftists who try to score lefty points by saying Bush was worse. This country quite possibly wouldn't have survived another 4 years of Trump. It may not survive 4 years of Biden because of the incredible damage that Trump has caused.
Bush = Bad because he expanded the imperial footprint while assaulting civil liberties that paved the way for Trump era no-fascism to emerge
Obama = Bad because he didn't roll back the Bush era excesses of forever war and corporate handouts, and allowed the simmering white nationalism to reach a boiling point
Trump = Literally the guy the first two presidents paved the way for, but is somehow not worse? How does that work?
If you are going to argue that person A is bad because he leads to person B, then IT STANDS TO REASON that person B must be worse, otherwise why even be upset about person A leading to person B? So Bush was worse because he led us to Trump, who, turns out, wasn't really that bad? Is that it? That the argument you wanna go with?
Every Republican president in our lifetime has been worse than the one before. Each one of them laid the groundwork for their successor to run further to the right. That trend didn't suddenly stop with Trump.
Trump let almost half a million Americans die because he couldn't be bothered to give a shit about a deadly pathogen, which also cratered the economy like Bush (possibly worse, remains to be seen). The percentage of Americans who are unemployed and currently facing eviction or being forced to steal from grocery stores does not bode well for the economic rebound.
And it's not like he didn't try to start foreign wars. He literally supported a coup in Venezuela, droned more than Obama, and ASSASSINATED a foreign leader in Iran. He doesn't get dove points just because he didn't succeed. Iran proved to be a more rational actor than the US, and that's honestly the only reason why we weren't dragged into an unwinnable regional conflict.
Oh, and white nationalism and the militia movement actually increased during a Republican president for like the first time ever. They usually increase during democratic presidencies and usually recede during republican presidencies. But this time they actually increased during Trump. I'm sure that will just simmer down though with absolutely no consequences whatsoever. Sure. A significant portion of our country has been brainwashed to sincerely believe in repackaged nazi propaganda but I guess that was just a goof? Trump successfully convinced half of the country that the other half shouldn't be allowed to exist. How's that gonna work out, you think? Oh, are they suddenly going to go back to believing in democracy? The group of white supremacist small business milita cops who attempted a lethal autogolpe in order to establish minority rule by force. Those guys. The ones who have been primed to desire an authoritarian ruler. You think they're just going to go away?
Do you guys even care about the things you pretend to care about? How can you be so insightful deconstructing the inevitable damage Bush caused and yet be so blind to the damage that Trump has and will continue to cause after his presidency?
Leftists say it because Bush has been re-habilitated as some kind of okay President. He wasn't. Trump and Bush were both disastrous.
Right, but the reflex to project out all the things that Bush paved the way for without also projecting out all the things Trump just paved the way for is intellectually dishonest at best, fascist apologia at worse. Bush was tragedy. Trump was farce.
No one can predict the future. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Every fucking leftist worth his or her salt correctly saw the roads paved by the Bush administration and were appalled by what was surely to come. The Trump administration proved most of them to be correct. I'm telling you now what has been paved by the Trump administration and you're giving me 8th grade level philosophy in return.
Every fucking leftist worth his or her salt correctly saw the roads paved by the Bush administration and were appalled by what was surely to come. The Trump administration proved most of them to be correct.
I agree.
I’m telling you now what has been paved by the Trump administration and you’re giving me 8th grade level philosophy in return.
I get where your frustration is coming from. Trump's abasement of the norms will become the new normal, as it was under Bush. If we were to apply a historical materialist lens to Bush and Trump, the future should be obvious (Republicans will become more aggressive in enacting minority rule and continue hoarding capital).
I just didn't get all that from your first post.
you’re giving me 8th grade level philosophy in return.
Seems unnecessary.
no idea why my posts above were all removed. I linked the rise of white nationalism and mass gun violence with the rise of the militarized police state and noted that the cry of "blue lives matter" and "law and order" has always been a way of vocalizing a rising fascist desire to rid the country of minorities. A significant portion of the population has been primed to deem their political opponents as illegitimate while also viewing acts of political violence as being a viable way of getting what they want. They have expressly formulated that they believe the role of the state should be to use the monopoly of force against minority communities and are willing to agitate violently in order to achieve this.
But I guess I didn't dunk hard enough on liberals so I they got removed.
COVID is going to be Trump's legacy.
That'll be hard to top for America.
doesn't he know biden has the highest covid cases the us has ever had???
I think that Trump has probably been the best president since FDR. On accident, of course.
Trump got 400,000 people killed. He gave power and money to the most corrupt captialist ghouls you can imagine.
He is just as bad as Bush.
Unless you think American lives are inherently more valuable than others, there's a gulf of difference between 400,000 deaths from a mismanaged pandemic and 1 million Iraqis killed in a war based on a lie
This is where I land on this. It wasn't like the Middle East was some oasis but it was a far more stable place before Bush slam dunked us into two endless, illegal wars and killed 1M plus people in the region.
Trump thought he could ignore a pandemic. Bush thought he could bomb his ass into the slot of greatest president of all time. That's a huge difference if you ask me.
no, he isn't
that's why idiots like Steve Schmidt and John Bolton and other Lincoln Project goons all hated Trump, because Trump wasn't hawkish enough
That stuff you said is why it's barely close instead of Bush being far and away worse IMO
I know, I just think it's funny that I didn't even say he's worst than Bush but people can't wait to defend their big wet hypercapitalist president.
Mods give us back downvotes we need to be able to downvote this dumb shit
Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise Trump was totally cool and didn't get a bunch of people killed, stir up anti-china shit, defund science and climate research, and give a ton of money and power to the worst kind of people.
Did I say that? None of that equates to 1 million dead iraqis bc of a lie. Trump was terrible, Bush was a demon
Yeah I know, I didn't think that one through and kinda let my hate for 80s' yuppies get in the way of my hate for horrific war criminals.
I'm smart.
