love this new metric of election credibility, it's not real if you don't have 3 hours lines
no, the united states is just extremely bad at democracy on purpose
Damn Google maps updated fast. 70% of Guyana is now in Venezuela with the dashed line.
Also now Jonestown is in Venezuela...
checking this has made me realize that the new map of Venezuela looks like an elephant
Jesus, I didn't realise the area he was claiming was like half of Guyana. There's no way this war goes well for Venezuela. It's inviting foreign invasion in order to try and hold hostile jungle in a new era of cheap drone warfare.
the only way this is a good idea is if it's a fucking troll designed to redirect weapons and aid being supplied to isntreal by forcing the US to pivot incredibly quickly, and then rescinds this claim and fully stands down in like 3 days when the US ships are pulling into the south carribbean
Some leftists would literally oppose Cuba taking Guantanamo Bay back as Imperialistic.
That's not even remotely comparable. Half a country isn't one military base.
When that country is a subsidiary of Exxon, it is actually just a US military base.
Guantanamo Bay doesn't have a civilian population.
I'm opposed to any US involvement in this conflict but still think war is bad even if one of the country's involved is a US pawn.
How are we supposed to get rid of American imperialism without being violent? Should we rely on magic instead?
China's economy rising and forming ties with other developing nations is doing more overall damage than starting another hot war with a 3rd party allied with the US. I'm for pursing diplomatic and economic means of weakening the empire before resorting to wars that will inflict harm on civilian populations who didn't ask to be part of this game of geopolitical chess. The USSR fought American Imperialism but they didn't blunder into poorly planned armed conflicts and generally tried exhausting other means before getting the guns out.
Magic it is then. The US ruling class will start a hot war with China (while making sure to use the corporate media to blame China the entire time) long before it ever surrenders hegemony to the CPC.
Alright have fun watching Caracas get burned to the ground when this goes tits up for Venezuela.Rescinding this comment cuz it was in poor taste and I was heated. Still think this conflict will likely go badly for Venezuela but I shouldn't make lite of it.
So you think palestine shouldnt have launched operation al-aqsa flood because gaza is currently being burned to the ground in retaliation? Fascists will do genocide anyway.
That's a fucked up response. We support AES. You're the one choosing to drop support at the first sight of something you don't like, and clearly without investigation, since you keep repeating "the US is not involved" and "theres no justification." Then you go straight to masking it with concern trolling.
Serioulsy, take a fucking a break and rethink before you post shit like
Alright have fun watching Caracas get burned to the ground when this goes tits up for Venezuela.
again. Because thats straight up
brained"theres no justification."
Never said that.
"the US is not involved"
Not directly yet, if they do get directly involved then I think Venezuela is screwed.
We support AES.
Yes and I think that includes me saying when I think an AES state is about to do something that's probably a very bad idea for them to do.
All i know is saying
Alright have fun watching Caracas get burned to the ground when this goes tits up for Venezuela.
Is some
bullshitYeah I'll cop that was a dumb thing to say, I was heated. I still think if a war breaks out it's gonna go bad for Venezuela so if nothing else I'm not happy about this.
poorly planned armed conflicts
Are you dissapointed that the VZ government didn't consult with you first before taking action for their best interests?
I don't think VZ really has the military capacity to take on the US or even a force being backed by the US. They ain't Russia.
The US is involved in 2 major conflicts rn, Ukraine and Israel. But no, VZ should've consulted with you first.
Yeah you're right they really should have consulted Lemmygrad users instead.
Why on earth would we smugly criticize the actions of an anti-imperialist nation and victim of US imperialism like VZ, like you're doing right now?
If I think it's a bad idea I say so, I'm just some asshole on the internet just like you, nobody consults us about anything before doing it. If you wanna make your case for why it's actually a great idea do so but you'll not be influencing anything besides maybe me.
I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. China is doing things differently yes but they’re also on the complete other side of the world. Venezuela doesn’t have the ability to build its productive forces like China because of its proximity to the United States.
Don’t question why you end up on the same side of US imperial foreign policy, just keep nodding along.
Do you genuinely think this is a good idea for Venezuela? It's not that I think it's unjust, I honestly don't know enough about the history of the disputed territory to pass judgement. It just seems like a really dumb move from Maduro. There's no clear benefit resource wise (they already have enough oil), its not going to foster any goodwill among other South American countries, if the US gets involved Venezuela is fucked, and even if successful they're going to have to sink a lot of energy into administering the newly annexed territory (which is never easy).
I just think that a decision like this was probably not made lightly. I really doubt Maduro was just like “fuck it imma do something funny” that like libs saying Putin is evil and one day invaded Ukraine for fun.
Fair, but there's a big difference between the Ukraine invasion and this. Ukraine was the result of a calculated effort to force Russia's hand. This seems like an unforced error, and I don't see why we should assume Maduro is incapable of making miscalculations just because he has the right ideas in a lot of other areas.
It would be nice if Maduro had an announcement making his reasoning available for everyone to see like Putin did, so I get what you’re saying. I would like to think this is a calculated effort but I’ll be honest and say I don’t really know. Could be a huge fuck up, but as of right now critical support is my default with things like this even if it is just reflexive anti Americanism.
The US is not involved in this conflict yet and I would opposed their involvement if they did
The US is not involved in this conflict
Are you sure? What is exxonmobil again? Who has influence in the International Court of Justice?
America is the one aggressing on Venezuela by using their puppet government in Guyana to encircle them and take the disputed territory unilaterally.
Why does that matter? Should countries just lay down and let America strangle them "non-militarily/indirectly" until they're dead?
Another reason I'm not happy about this is I'm not confident Venezuela can win this, if it gets embroiled in this conflict it could just as easily end up a win for the US Empire cuz now they can just snuff out Venezuela instead of trying to chip away at them via more subtle means. That's why, even if I don't agree with Maduro's decision here, I would still oppose US involvement of any kind.
I’m not confident Venezuela can win this
Guyana has no military.
it could just as easily end up a win for the US Empire
So your alternative is to let them win because they might win if Venezuela reacts? Makes no sense.
this conflict it could just as easily end up a win for the US Empire cuz now they can just snuff out Venezuela instead of trying to chip away at them
I'm not accusing you of this, but this is exactly the line of reasoning that every Trot and left liberal I know used to explain why we all needed to "condemn Hamas". The unstated assumption here is that confronting the empire can only result in a worse outcome for the periphery, and so we must oppose any material resistance by the periphery for their own good.
The only two conclusions to this line of thinking are:
- That there is no possibility of things improving for the periphery, and so the best they can hope for is to preserve the status quo indefinitely.
- That the only effective means of improving the material conditions of the periphery is by waging some kind of purely moral nonviolent struggle through speech and symbolic gestures.
Both of these are just liberalism.
Clearly the US has no interests in the region, that's why they leave VZ alone and let them develop peacefully. /s
It's not your place to criticize actions of an anti-imperialist nation like VZ because of your speculation on its outcome.
Support the victims of US imperialism, and trust that they know what they're doing? I realize that's very difficult for you to do.
I've been owned, a pro-US stooge used the smug emoji in defense of the most powerful and evil empire in world history, and depict their victims as smug.
I don’t think the US is winning this one. America trains for the wars it’s GOING to fight, not the ones it didn’t expect. Very few of the relatively small number of US troops have jungle training, all our equipment weights 200 tons so it’s not gonna be useful there, we already didn’t win Vietnam. That’s all before you add on the stress of Ukraine and Israel. I don’t see it happening.
Yes which could destroy Venezuela which is another reason I don't think this is a good thing.
Insofar as any military effort done by a member of the global south could end its existence by going against American interests I guess. But like I said in another comment I really doubt this was done with zero thought put behind it. You have to think on a world wide scale if the Russo-Ukraine war was not happening right now, Oct 7 probably would have had more trouble than anticipated since the US had to divert Israeli assets to Ukraine because it’s going so poorly for them. I couldn’t imagine a similar situation isn’t going on here.
unfortunately, as this thread proves. Lib brainworms are stubborn. Hard to kill them all at once, its a process that hopefully they'll complete
It's going to take the collective effort of multiple wars happening around the world to avoid the US invading Venezuela at this point.
I wish them the best.
The more regional conflicts the US is bogged down in, the more favorable it is for enemies of the US to kick off a frozen regional conflicts while the hegemon is distracted.
A geopolitical version of "let's storm Area 51, they can't stop all of us."
I read something about the border dispute's history a week or two ago (probably from here) but I didn't think this would actually happen.
Also as a Burger who can't into geography I was certain Guyana was in Africa.
From my POV this means he was getting slapped up in either public or private polls. Even if he manages to take the land, they now have a not insignificant amount of very pissed off Guyanese people and probably the Thanos gaunlet of every sanction imaginable and idk if they have the same abillity as the RF to just launder everything through the UAE. I'm sure the people currently living there would love being under infinity sanctions out of nowhere, maybe they have settlers ready to take over, but who knows.
Exxon Mobil & America vs a left leaning enemy of the American Empire.
How is this hard for some of you?
They did the same in Syria, Bolivia, and Ukraine. Cuba and now Venezuela yet again. These leftists need to stop being coddled.
Leftists in one breath: Down with the empire! down with capitalism.
Leftist in the next breath: we must keep the sacred borders of the colonial age alive. Humanity must never adapt these borders to the conditions on the ground in the modern day. May the Treaty of Tordisalles and Conference of Berlin live forever! Long Live the Queen and glory to the commonwealth!
Leftists in one breath: America is bad because it's a genocidal empire that comes up with flimsy excuses to invade other countries just so they can get their oil
Leftists in the next breath: here's why it's good this country is invading its neighbor based on a flimsy excuse to justify taking a newly discovered oil deposit
America doesn't have anything to do with this at the outset and I think its pretty disingenuous to try to paint people concerned about then population of a nation that's about to be invaded fot oil as "being obsessed with borders"
America doesn't have anything to do with this at the outset
Ok but they literally don't. You can argue there's soft involvement through ExxonMobil but this isn't directly opposing some specific American policy.
They're clearly gonna use this to get directly involved and make things way worse for venezuala and it's gonna be really really easy for them to point to this as justification for literally directly taking over any oil fields in contention.
You can argue there's soft involvement through ExxonMobil
I would argue theres complete involvement through ExxonMobil
Well you'd be wrong and youre about to find out what complete involvement actually looks like unfortunately.
Well you'd be wrong
Ok
glad you're around to enlighten us that hegemonic control of resources by a US company through US imperialism backed by US military is only "soft involvment" in GuyanaLmao ok you're right, this is a good idea that will work out well for venezuala with no repurcussions and America deffinitly will not use this as an excuse to be more antagonistic. After all they're already doing everything they can to be completely involved.
I thought I had a good point but then you depicted me as a smug emoji so obviously you've won.
I thought I had a good point but then you depicted me as a smug emoji so obviously you've won
I mean yeah, obviously
soft involvement through ExxonMobil
I wouldn't call influencing the ICJ to steal disputed territory from a country and then threatening intervention if they defend themselves "soft"
The US attacks and sanctions on VZ are all in our heads apparently. They have no interest in the region according to you.
I guess I missed the part where Guyana was the one that imposed those sanctions.
Guyana is dominated by Exxon Mobil, they have captured the government and in some ways are becoming the government in Guyana. Guyanas economy is 50 times smaller than Exxon Mobil. Exxon Mobil has a history of being involved in killings of thousands of environmentalists and indigenous people in Latin America.
Guyana is not sanctioned and in no part of their agreement with Exxon Mobil have they agreed to build roads or infrastructure or even a single bridge to cross the river Esquibo and connect the region to the rest of Guyana.
The only reason the borders are the way they are is because of British Imperial aims to limit the chances of a United Latin American state in the regions of Bolivar.
Also you have to remind me. What is the name of the largest oil company in America? Do you think America maybe has some sort of connection to Exxon Mobil, or do you really think they are entirely removed from decisions.
"Clearly this has nothing to do with the US. If only Venezuela would follow my advice, then they would truly be lead towards a liberatory society"Didn't realize "don't invade other countries to take their oil" was a super niche concept I had just come up with. Thought that was like, the main criticism of the last 40 years of americas foreign policy. Not sure why it's not a bad thing all of the sudden I guess.
There's been many invasions which have had minimal bloodshed, some tanks and infantry here and without a fight suddenly this land's annexed; if the US isn't willing to defend it's puppet then who cares. Clearly it would be if this was all over the news like it would normally be, but no, it's not all over the news, so the US is by all likelihood not going to do anything because it's already bogged down enough. It's not good or bad, this is simply just political maneuvering and the culmination of a history I will admit I don't and you clearly don't understand. Testing every global south liberation project for purity is meaningless and unhelpful, and showing your whole ass by equivocating nearly a hundred years of American sponsored global terror with what appears to be a bloodless landgrab does nothing except show you don't trust nor understand those who are in global south liberation projects.
I don't know if it's good or bad, but I know me caring won't matter, and I understand that socialist projects aren't perfect in the real world.
Show
Yea didn't read past you opining for just a peaceful bloodless invasion of another country.
Maybe all the troops will be home by Christmas.
Maybe they will because eastern Guyana literally doesn’t have a bridge to get to Esquibo.
There's a large contingent of people here who are pacifists or at least just don't like it when people might get hurt. I'm not one of them, but I think it's good that they're here to prevent the realist Tankies like me from losing perspective.
pacifism is the language of the privileged, for most people not fighting and turning the other cheek means death and subjugation. I do not extol violence, but a peaceful world can only be born out of a free world.
William Lloyd Garrison achieved nothing for decades that John Brown achieved in a day.
that John Brown achieved in a day
what was that? a date with the hangman? Harper's Ferry is a terrible example for 'owning' pacifists.
I suggest you read William Lloyd Garrisons speeches in the months after the raid. He basically prays for a mass slavery insurrection because of what John Brown did. WEB Du Bois, Fredrick Douglas, James Baldwin, Malcom X, and countless others have writings that share the sentiment that the raid started the mass popularity of the anti slavery movement.
He basically prays for a mass slavery insurrection
well that wasn't very pacifist of him! but seriously, most of those names still didn't take up arms, if their writings about Brown are significant, they were still not meaningless before/after that violent act of resistance. by rejecting the pacifists outright people throw the baby out with the bathwater--speeches and newspapers matter! we can get along with people who scold about killing and write good
Im never taking up arms either. In just not gonna equate this Esquibo conflict to American invasions of Iraq just because weapons are used.
I am bothered that leftist are using no contexts to the conflicts they are judging. Capitalism does have to be fought back against.
I understand not wanting people to get hurt. But if it makes you drop support for AES then i think its bullshit
My take is that capitalism is a violent hegemonic ideology that will not allow itself to be overthrown without people getting hurt. However, in most cases, hurting people in the overthrow of capitalism is the lesser evil to allowing capitalism to continue to exist and hurt people en mass.
Yeah, i agree. Violence isn't chosen by the oppressed. Its forced on them by their oppressors. And that sucks, but there's not much that can change that, unless the oppressed suddenly decide to be cool all of a sudden
A lot of innocent Guyanese people are gonna get caught in the crossfire
everyday I'm 
Look I just want Venezuela to look like an elephant wearing a hat
🇹🇼
about invading an oil-rich country
same.
