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complaining about what pronouns people will assume (might upset some people and I'm sorry for that)
https://hexbear.net/post/3013555
Even in queer spaces people won't see what I'm doing and just go that extra little bit
I'm always going to have to explain I want to be she/her'd instead of they/them'd. And there'll be people who only they/them me and not the cis people 
idk guys I'm just sad. It literally will not matter how much work I put in. They're going to know what I'm doing but I am still going to have to tell them.
I'd so much rather people assume I'm a guy now and then assume I'm a woman once I start to transition. I know not everyone feels that way but
anyway...
edit: coming back and I just want to be clear that I understand why people do this and I obviously support enbies, this is just about me personally.
Edit2: just took a little girl nap and feel a lot better about the situation. Hope I didn't upset anyone
Having a lot of dark thoughts reading that thread. They/theming people who don't use that pronoun is absolutely misgendering. Even in queer spaces it seems that way, since I never notice the cissies getting it.
I get harassed in public and misgendered in queer spaces. Why do I bother going on if no one respects or cares for me
Finally, someone who gets what I'm saying
I am really sorry you're in a bad place. Wish I had an answer.
I think there's another thread about this but I'm queer spaces people will generally they/them you anyway regardless of how clearly you are presenting fem until it's clear. I am, I think, somewhat clearly a she/her but I always get they them'd (and he him'd by cis people -.-)
Yes, I had just come from that thread. Its what upset me. I know (at least for some/most) people its not a personal thing, but it still hurts. That I could really try, and people will see that and still they/them an obvious trans girl. idk, I get it (about enbies especially) but... I don't know. Still makes me sad.
Oh and also people who they/them only trans people but have no problem with cis people's pronouns.
Yes it's sorta frustrating but also important to be inclusive ofc. You can never tell though if someone is like "Just making sure" or genuinely like "uhh what are your pronouns" lol
:yea: I know it is
I just want to be a girl damn it.
I know some he/they and she/they people have started going they/x (they first) just cause if you tell cis people they can use either, then the cis will just use the gendered one they think matches. Trans or allies might be overcorrecting for that, that sucks sorry if you're caught up in that.
My they/them tags are mostly legacy content that needs to be removed, at least right now I think I want to use she/her exclusively in the future.
Unless I'm just completely misunderstanding what you're saying.
Then remove it maybe. If you want she/hers, just use that tag. Maybe it sounds weird, but your username and pfp are pretty androgynous so I guess I understand if people see it and default to they/them, taking a glance at your pronouns. I default they them (for others regardless of gender) no matter what, personally. I like she/hers too, tho.
The thing is I completely understand defaulting to they/them online and do the same, you don't really see any of my presentation online. Right now my presentation irl is completely a guy, and I'd understand/be fine with someone using he/him but once I start changing that... You know?
I remember the inevitable "let's go around the room and say our names and pronouns" and feeling locked up cause I boymoded that day... ugh awful. I ended up saying I just wasn't using pronouns even though inside I was screaming "just use she/her pleeeeeaaase." I didn't like the idea of boymode me being so incongrous with what I wanted to be referred to as.
When I girlmode and people do the pronoun circle I say they/them usually, but yeah I feel super shitty whenever I get in that situation and I have to lie
As an egg, I was glad to never be asked my pronouns cause I didn't want to think about that.
cis folks are dumb about gender
I haven't started hormones yet so I definitely have masculine traits. Anyway I was at a party and presenting very feminine otherwise, and I got misgendered. I gently corrected the person and that was it.
I think a lot of cis people are defaulting to they them, in an effort to not assume. But they don't realize that itself is an assumption.
What I would like though is more people just asking what pronouns I prefer. And I hope we'll get there soon, but yeah cis people don't understand that it's okay to ask and I had to explain it to cis friend of mine who was not sure how they should gender somebody that was presenting very gender neutral that they had recently met. So I told her just to ask.
Which is what I do in trans spaces and with other gender non-conforming folk. I just ask.
I default they/them in real life too lol. I don’t relate particularly, but I understand.
I would advise you to use she/her as your pronouns if that's exclusively what you want people to use! Pronouns are weird, gender is a fuck, if you feel better about having a they/them on there that's understandable.
Try it out for a couple days and see how it makes you feel. If it's just too much anxiety, that's okay. You're allowed to use whatever pronouns you want to.
down with cis
Down with cis
Calling "they" gender neutral doesn't really describe how it's actually used. The issue is that the word "they" is being used in three different ways:
As a pronoun for enbies: This is pretty straightforward. "They" is the go-to pronoun for enbies owning to the fact that it's not a neopronoun, not "he/she," and not "it."
As a pronoun to describe a person of indeterminate gender: A good example is someone on the other side of a door where you can only see their silhouette or a human player in a multiplayer game.
As a filler pronoun that points to a noun where the noun's gender is irrelevant or nonexistent: This one is the hardest to explain. If I have a sentence "Everyone has skeletons in their closets," the "their" points to "everyone," but "everyone" doesn't have a particular gender associated with it by virtue of "everyone" meaning, well, everyone, so every person of every gender. This is often used for hypotheticals like "The Communist disdains to conceal their views and aims" where the "Communist" is a hypothetical Communist and not a real person with a real gender. As a hypothetical person, "Communist" doesn't have a gender, so the "their" which points to "Communist" doesn't have gender either.
Calling "they" gender neutral is a poor way of describing how it's being used, and I would argue that "they" has never been truly gender neutral because if it were actually gender neutral, then "they" could be used for all people of all genders with no one feeling gender dysphoria or feeling like they have been misgendered which is obviously untrue. At best, "they" is gender indeterminate. Actual gender neutral pronouns are indefinite pronouns like "someone" or "somebody," pronouns that convey no gender. "It" functions closer to an actual gender neutral pronoun in the sense that everyone (except for various enbies who do use it/its) feels equally dehumanized but in a "you're calling me an inanimate object" way instead of a misgendering way.
Those assholes insisting on calling you they/them are just saying you don't pass as a cis woman and are hiding behind "uh aktually they is gender neutral so I'm not misgendering you" when "they" isn't even gender neutral. I think the three uses need to be properly delineated, each with their own pronouns. Maybe it should be they/their for (1), one/ones for (2), and it/its for (3). You get introduced as a one until you specify your pronouns in which case no one has any excuse to hide behind since one/ones is no longer applicable when the person actually says what pronouns they use. I think he/she/they-one should mimic tu-vous in the sense that "one" is used for complete strangers where you're not expected to know their pronouns while "he/she/they" are used for people you are more familiar with. Obviously, the social context where a pronoun circle takes place is one where you move from "one" to "he/she/they."
I just realized my post is only tangentially related to what you wrote. I guess I got carried away.
This is an incredible explanation, thank you. I don't have any thoughts or questions, but know I really appreciate it.
I know people who still they/them trans men, who explicitly use he/him and xe/xir, and have for years. Like, what? You can understand someone not being cis but them being the opposite gender is too much?
They/them feels sufficiently neutral and inoffensive to some people, I guess. Technically anyone could be they/them. Is acknowledging that someone's pronouns don't match your idea of them in your head too much? (sorry not directed at you specifically to be clear, but to cis people I know)
At that point it's just blatant transphobia.
And yes, many cis people need reeducation.
Many cis people are unwilling to learn anything bar what they learned in school And some of these people call themselves our allies...
I've had to educate a few on neo pronouns and about the ace spectrum
"Reeducating the cis"
That thread is a mess, so I'm not surprised it has made you feel like this. It's made me think quite a lot as well. The way I see it, you shouldn't expect people to assume your pronouns based on appearance, because then some people will be forever mis-gendered by everyone (not just until that time when they "fully transition", because their preferred appearance will never mach societal gender expectations).
If someone is in a big meeting or space with lots of strangers, they/them should be used as a last resort to refer to someone you don't know. Preferably that person would just try to use non-gendered language, or your name i stead of pronouns, but if they do it to everyone and consistently, then I don't see a problem with it. If a person they/thems a trans-looking person, but just assumes he/she pronouns for a cis-looking person, they're doing it wrong. If after getting to know you they don't switch to your preferred pronouns and keep misgendering you with they/them pronouns, they're obviously also doing it wrong.
At the same time, I don't see such a problem with just straightforwardly asking for pronouns, or doing introduction pronoun circles. I think lot's of cis people have a stick up their butt, in a way where they feel like they should already know everything and are then extremely awkward about bringing it up, instead of understanding that it's actually exactly about accepting that you don't know what's going on in someone's head until that person tells you in their own words.
I've also had to endure cis people complaining (right in front of me mind you, and without asking my opinion) about how hard it is to do pronoun circles. Personally I don't think any cis person is allowed to have an opinion on intros w/ pronouns or pronouns circles. Any participation in these introductions on behalf of cis people is 100% an expression of solidarity and they should refer any decision making related to such matters to the queer people in the space. Personally I think all cis people should say their name and pronouns when introducing themselves even to other cis people to normalise the fuck out of that shit and make it super easy for the rest of us, but maybe that's just me.
Let me know if any of that sounds off. I'm glad you're feeling better, naps are super based. Down with cis
If it's an explicitly queer event, maybe. But I don't want people asking me pronouns at work, for example. Lots of pretty blatant homophobia and transphobia around here, so I rather people just incorrectly assume I'm a guy for now so it doesn't affect my ability to earn money.
Imo, offering your own during an introduction is enough to provide an implicit offer for someone else to share without pressuring them to do so. Doing so should be more normalized.
Anyways, I've never seen a pronoun circle as far as I remember and I've only essentially been asked my pronouns once (which was at work and I just ignored the question) except like my brother asked I came out.
I know
I just want people to look at me and think "damn that's a girl.", yaknow? Even if I don't pass (realistically no way I'll ever fully pass in queer spaces), just like, know what I'm going for. Honestly I think its because of that not passing that makes me upset.
The everyone and consistently is a big thing for me. I'm surprised you've heard cis people complaining about it, I feel like I see trans people complaining about them more. That might be skewed by where I'm hanging out online though.
No it all sounds very reasonable, and I agree. I got very worked up.
I think it's worth interrogating this feeling. I'm someone who will probably never "pass", but I've found immense solidarity with (especially racialised) cis women who will also never be looked at and perceived that way, since to some extent you have to adhere to white beauty standards to be seen as "that girl" who is worth loving and protecting on-sight. Looking into the connection between fatphobia and racism helped me unpack this a lot.
Of course I could just be interpreting your feelings through the lens of my own experience, so take it as you will.
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I almost kinda wish people would stop assuming I am a girl. On the one hand that is by far the best option of the two (staid, boring, fascist) binary genders, and I do fuck with she/her, but all the gendered assumtions people make past that are weird and uncomfortable. If people asked I would say ✨ Weird & Kinda Scary ✨