I don't know how it's possible to believe in toxic masculinity and also unironically believe men are literally all incurably innately bad. Toxic masculinity implies the existence of nontoxic masculinity. It implies that our societal concept of manhood is damaging, and hurts everyone - men and woman and nb people - and that we need to take steps to change it. I see this "yes all men are evil" stuff as just venting, and it doesn't hurt me when people say it because it doesn't really affect me, and I believe that the people saying it have things they're totally justified in venting about, but like in this conversation, it clearly hurts other people.
Damn, mayocide / menicide humor is one of those things that got me into /r/cth in the first place. But I can definitely see how it's bad.
Fosho. I just wonder if popularizing that kind of humor can be bad. Like someone who's not as terminally online as me might see those kinds of jokes and think they are serious (like right wingers). Idk, this has never been a concern of mine at all but it does make me wonder. Not like there's anything anyone can do about policing humor tho so who cares I guess lol
In most other places like you say, people would just think it's antagonizing for its own sake, discard the pain behind, discard your voice within their ranks and others entirely. Not like they need any more reason, but ya know.
Kill all billionaires seems cool and good for everyone because it's so out of reach but.. relatable, I guess, and perfectly correct, but jumping to kill all rich men, kill all men, it's still about the pure hatred toward the person in power, the oppressor, the majority, the idea of it foremost but the object is still the human. Some men might deserve to get killed, so fuck them, some men could help stop these other men but don't (the majority), so fuck them, some men do help (but they're the smallest minority of them all). So fuck them all indeed, those same people that would discard you for those words would certainly be part of that majority of fuckers who never act, push for the status quo. Hence, kill them all, it would do more good.
I don't know what I'm aiming at but it might be useful to try to explain the powers at play, to radicalize, and if that doesn't work (e.g. right winger lol), to go full overdrive and antagonize and get the guillotine out. Or manipulate ? Idk.
Like someone who’s not as terminally online as me might see those kinds of jokes and think they are serious (like right wingers).
There will always be something to lose your shit on. These are imagined demons that they gotta fight because they already feel alienated from their surroundings and now they feel alienated from the sedative of the masses (tv, internet, etc).
Just treating internet discourse like this a "serious problem" is unproductive (whoops!)
Yeah I think that's well put, it'll always be out there regardless.
I would never point somebody here if they were white or male unless they were already a leftist. We've got a lot a people who are becoming non-politically radicalized in the US; they're angry but they're not sure at what yet. A common refrain of "we want to kill people like you", no matter how sarcastic or irony-poisoned, is likely to drive people away.
As a somewhat straight, white cis male with a self-deprecating humor, this is my last oasis since all other comedy has been cancelled. I think the problem stems from the same place as with any jokes with problematic undertones, understanding context and knowing the actual values of the person who's making the joke (especially when there is a grain of truth in the joke). Social media strips all this context away and I could imagine transmen who are active in social media in leftist circles would be bombarded with these jokes interleaved with actual misandry, and when you are already in a vulnerable position, it hits a lot harder than when you've grown up hearing those same stereotypes and jokes.
I'm with you! Aggressive humor against oppressive ethnicities & identities is funny, a great outlet, and honestly educational sometimes.
But to be fair, I've never once (in leftist online circles) seen trans white men labeled as part of that oppressing identity. They are undeniably and statistically overall an oppressed identity.
Obviously, and I didn't want to insinuate anything else, but if you identify as a male and especially if you are aware of the oppression that's attached to it, I'd imagine you would be affected negatively by this kind of discourse if you weren't acclimated to it. I grew up in the gender identity I was assigned at birth, and I'd be lying if I said the negative stereotypes about men didn't affect me especially when I was younger (at some point even pushing me towards anti-sjw/MRA bullshit, thank Allah I grew out of it), and to add that to the pile of negative stereotypes pointed at you when you already are in a minority group seems like a lot to handle.
If the message is all men are scum, it doesn't really matter if you are cis or trans, since you are still a man.
This hatred of Italians is why I tell people I'm just European, despite actually being an Italian.
Can't believe we allow anti-black racism on this website
I'm somewhere along the femby scale but I'm glad to see this - I pretty often see ironic humor about hating men, even in trans circles, and it disappoints me because I know that although it's not meant to disparage specific people and trans men it often has that effect and people get carried away. Personally I think regardless of one's past experiences with specific guys, it's not cool to blanket guys as a whole as bad. It's also just incorrect to do so. So hey, @ all the wholesome dudes out there, you're valid and cool
I pretty often see ironic humor about hating men, even in trans circles, and it disappoints me because I know that although it’s not meant to disparage specific people and trans men it often has that effect and people get carried away.
If that is the case they can just talk about it to the people around them or learn to adjust to being made fun of once in a while. How many times do jokes about guys being an issue occur in your social circles?
If people on Tumblr or 4chan do it and that debilitates a guy while everyone around them is not expressing those ideas then the solution is to realize web forums are not reality. The only times IRL I have seen complaints on this is from people who would like to be able to make clearly seriously more transgressive jokes about women.
In my case I'm talking about social media and small online communities like discord servers. That's where I've seen that sorta thing happen. It's happened on more than one occasion in places I'm active in. And in this case I'm talking about the fact I've seen people be pushed to leave some communities - not necessarily directly but just because of the prevalence of the (usually specific and recurrent) users who'd go on and on with negative things about men over a period of time. Seeing that has contributed to my stance on this, that: we should be just as against misandry if it comes up as we are against misogyny. Imo, that's more conducive to being genuinely inclusive than just expecting men to 'adjust to being made fun of'.
Imo, that’s more conducive to being genuinely inclusive than just expecting men to ‘adjust to being made fun of’.
I think everyone should adjust to being made fun of. The benefit of physical spaces is that you are forced to put things out in the open when something is too uncomfortable to deal with. If you feel that the discourse in your group is crossing some line (and the group really matters to you) then go ahead. You gotta deal with these things on a case by case basis. In my experience, most things I see online during a standard browsing session are not really "misandry" (unless I specifically go hunting for this shit).
I also am on the camp of not treating online as "real". I certainly find online spaces as more talking to myself than an actual person tbh. If these processes are encouraging people to spend more time logged off I think there is a benefit to all of this. Although my opinion is meaningless ofc, the forces which alienate all of us from each other and going outside are beyond me atm.
Wow the Tumblr exodus clearly had a huge effect on twitter huh.
Not really. White identity doesn't go nearly as deep as gender identity does. You'll find that most white people identify more as 'American' or 'British' than as white. The only people who strongly identify as white are Fascists.
White doesn’t exist. It’s a label added to ethnic groups considered useful enough to be allowed into the “less overtly oppressed” club. If someone goes on about white identity, 9/10 times they’re a nazi or a dupe - white culture never existed in the first place
White exists, in the sense that it’s a social construct used specifically to exclude specific groups. Gender exists also as a social construct. Has anyone argued that gender has been constructed specifically to elevate men at the expense of women? I imagine so.
True point on white being an entirely exclusive label, pretty much what I meant but worded better. I’d definitely read the theory on gender as an exclusionary label if it can be found
You worded it very well. I’m very sure I’m not the first to observe that both race and gender are both socially constructed. They “don’t exist” in an objective sense but they do within our societal context.
I'm sure it has but you just worded the issue pretty succinctly. Good post.
This is real, especially when one considers the social capital that one can utilize pre-transition for afab people if they are desiring to change themselves physically. It has economic components and racial components in my opinion. It isn't just "tumblr stuff", and there were always posts like this on twitter, you all just didn't see them. Social phenomena exist even if you aren't looking directly at them 🙄
Comments on this post and downvotes show why we need this community even more. We have to educate on positive elements of masculine identity and how it can be manifested.
There was recently a headline article on a German news site about some radical feminist being proud of hating men (didn’t read fully cuz paywall), and this was somehow presented as something profound. There is now doubt, that women generally speaking have to deal with more/different issues than men, but encapsulating themselves in a bubble of righteousness and disdain is in no way productive. And there will be now revolution and real change grow out of this attitude.
It's understandable, there is a power, there is an oppressor, whether you are a man or not, there is an abstraction of man that needs to be fucking murdered in cold blood.
Would you also say it's racist for a black person to be annoyed at someone trying to justify racism as "Oh well I'm just afraid of black people"?
You're not a misogynist for calling out sexism. Just because it's targeted against men so many people on the (tumblr/liberal) left have this weird acceptance of it. It's pretty disgusting.
Oh my god grow up. What is a woman gonna do when they hate you, be a little rude to you? We got bigger fucking problems to worry about.
Given the fact that people are reluctant to present and identify with their chosen gender identity as a result of this, I would say it's more than just some women being rude.
If the legacy of masculinity is toxic then what can you really do about it? What if a trans person wants to embrace their "American" identity but the online critique of America's history makes it harder.
If someone is being terrible to them irl then they are surrounded by shitheads. Online venting on Tumblr is not the same as some rejection of who you are by the people around you.
I don't think that men shouldn't be criticised, and I do think that women and femmes deserve a space to be able to vent their frustrations with patriarchy. But there comes a point where criticism and venting become bullying.
But there comes a point where criticism and venting become bullying.
I just think there is a distinction in purely online phenomenon (in mass forums) vs IRL harassment (or anything more persistent). Anyway, I guess all I want to say is that people need to log off so I am going to follow my own advice now (in a bit).
You are never gonna have every person on your side. Be it as a man, a woman, or genderfluid. It’s not your responsibility to be liked by everyone. Only that you affirm your humanity.
Men are trash is not really a dehumanizing act, more of a critique. Just be a good “man”, whatever that means to you.
This is why I fucking hate left-wing spaces sometimes. Justifying legitimate sexism as "venting" is fucking gross and all it does it alienate people who would actually agree with us. The reason I started moving to the left is because I saw how fucking hypocritical liberals (tumblr feminists etc.) and right-wingers were and the left seemed to reject that.
This kind of shit is the reason tumblrinaction and other alt-right recruiting grounds find it so easy. We are either against racism and sexism entirely, or we're just as hypocritical as the liberals.
I think that’s people failing to understand this shit is not aimed at FTM or transmac people. Men are trash comes from men being useless, abusive, cheaters, etc. If you are FTM or transmasc you are not the really the type of men they are referring to, unless you think that being a masc person is being a useless shit. Unless they are terfs, and nobody should give a shit about TERFs.
not really the type of men
Isn’t that the problem? This sort of thing labels “real men” as trash, which could cause problems for trans men/trans masc identity
It’s not real men. Why is the asshole piece of shit the real man? What do trans men gain from wanting to associate their masculinity with the godawful masculinity most reasonable men are trying to escape?
If “all men are trash” is a repeated sentiment, you don’t think that might cause a little undue stress for trans men who are pursuing their own masculine identity? As if this wasn’t the point in shaun’s observation - that generalized hatred toward men is not productive and could even be destructive, whereas criticism of toxic masculinity is necessary
The thought of all men being trash is inherently nonsensical. So putting any undue pressure on yourself over that sentiment is a little silly to me. It speaks to a deep seated anger women might have with the men in their lives, and it might be with just cause; but it’s not your responsibility, and asking women to validate your existence doesn’t solve the problem.
Yes exactly, when you refer to men, that includes trans men. To say 'men' and then go 'but we don't mean trans men' is kinda transphobic as it excludes trans men from being men.
Why do they feel caught in the crossfire? Like I don’t think of myself as trash, anymore. In hindsight as a teen and very early twenties, I was a pretty shitty dude. But I have grown, and definitely pull my weight around the house. Meanwhile my father will call my mom to tell her he is hungry. I cook for my wife, clean diapers, do dishes, do chores.
Just be a good dude and don’t let these women angry at their shitty husbands or parents stop you from being a good person.
