Permanently Deleted
Man there’s been a major uptake in lib shit in the last couple days huh?
Then why you here?
Considering the push back OP is getting I think you’re getting pissed about a handful of users. This is still probably the most pro-ML open Internet forum I’ve encountered beyond a few now deleted Reddit subs that were half meant as jokes.
“Hey Sandy, check out my new move, I call it the grouchy Chapo”
“Stop naming moves after me”
“Everyone is a lib except for me”
“Well it’s true”
Okay, I just eye roll a bit at people yelling about libs and the CIA every time they encounter users who have the unmitigated gall to have debates on here.
Yeah, and it's because we don't have downvotes.
I'm so disappointed seeing this shit float up to the front page.
All we can do is ratio them until downvotes come back (if.they come back).
definitely contains some liberalism with CIA characteristics
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"Is market competition more justifiable if its competition between co-operatives?"
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"Not gonna lie, it feels pretty bleak right now for the left"
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"Should we institute a mandatory vetting procedure for all new and existing users to combat the transphobic environment?"
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"At this point, the only way the US can get Medicare for All is when China gets free universal healthcare first"
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"How come the privatization of Japan National Railways didn't seem to produce as bad long-term effects as the privatization of British Rail did?"
“Should we institute a mandatory vetting procedure for all new and existing users to combat the transphobic environment?”
How is this fed shit lmao?
Most leftist discords do vetting and it works. I don't see why it wouldn't work here. It would literally help PREVENT "feds" (quotes because I dont believe this community is important enough for the feds to care) and wreckers.
Literally reads like a talking point from the page on sabotaging organizations in the CIA sabotage field manual, which emphasizes sending things to committees and use of "proper channels" with no shortcuts
I don't think doing opsec through security vetting sounds like that at all. If anything "let everyone in, opsec gets in the way" is the fed sounding thing to me.
"Put a committee in front of signups" sounds extremely fed to me, especially in the internet era, and especially for a (former) lib-left pipeline group
Sure, but OP asked if his post history looked like fed stuff, that's one of the recent ones that has a fed smell to it 🤷♀️
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Denying a racist Western conspiracy about China is not only good, its morally right.
There is not a SINGLE Muslim nation that will condemn this situation at the UN. All of them have denied it without fail.
If that alone is not proof that this is another Iraqi WMD situation what more do you need?
Again, only the nations who have been murdering Muslims for the last two decades say this exists. Only them. This is another insane lie concocted by western powers.
legit had someone tell me that every muslim nation was corrupt and that china was holding stuff over their head while calling me racist for thinking uighurs arent being genocided lmao
I've heard the same. :agony:
It's the only rational argument you can make against that state of affairs, as insane as it is.
Nevermind the OIC praises China's Xinjiang program as 'providing effective care for it's citizens'.
There is not a SINGLE Muslim nation that will condemn this situation at the UN
I’m sorry, but like why are we, as socialists, trading in the fiction that capitalist states/governments with majority Muslim populations are advancing the collective will and interests of those Muslim populations? You have to sever anything approaching class analysis or Marxist analysis to talk about “Muslim nations” as if the religion is the guiding force behind the actions and positions of those states.
The government of Pakistan isn’t like an avatar for the moral or political preferences of working class Muslim people in Pakistan, it literally exists to keep those workers subjugated.
Plenty of non-governmental Muslim orgs say the same thing.
But it doesnt matter what those poor uneducated browns think, eh? They're not qualified to recognize oppression like the West is.
But it doesnt matter what those poor uneducated browns think, eh?
Yea, but in the case of both NGOs and literal governments, that’s not what we’re talking about, and you’re making the same theoretical error as the person above.
Also a big fuck you for implying I’m a racist, and I’d be surprised if I’m not the only “brown” involved in this discussion.
It may not be the guiding force behind those countries but it is a shared value. It's ridiculous to assume that they all are corrupt and bend to China's will for whatever reason
Bending to the will of the nation that wont bomb you, rather than the ones that will.
200 IQ
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (the Muslim equivalent of an International rights group) literally says that it's NOT questionable.
And they came to that decision after visiting Xinjiang, reversing their earlier position that it WAS questionable.
So no, I am not about to 'both sides' Western lies.
Come back to me when the mosques are being deconstructed. Only thing being deconstructed is fundamentalist extremism leading to terrorism and Uyghur women being nothing but babymaking factories.
Then what exactly are you saying? What parts of "Uyghur culture and life" were "being systematically deconstructed"?
There are videos from Xinjiang, albeit somewhat suppressed, like this youtuber https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oKvulTU8oU
That's like saying ESL classes are immoral in America. Should people not learn a second language that gives broader work opportunities?
they legit have super mosques that are tourist attractions. google maps shows it recently too
Not allowing fundamentalists to enslave women is bad now. Critical support for Chinese ISIS in their struggle for religious freedom.
I'm not intersted in engaging with insane Western lies.
I hate to tell you this, but bad people can lie to achieve their goals. The West has been doing this for centuries.
Is using a low platform and cloth instead of a low table a dangerous element protecting national security? Because the former is called uncivilized by Chinese “relatives”, the spies that huge amounts of Uyghurs are required to have visit their homes and provide information to, with tables given as gifts. It is that petty, but the pettiness belies a depth of monitoring and oppression.
Do you have a source for that
idk maybe I'm just biased and maybe because a lot of the sources are from things like human rights watch or the sources main sources are radio free asia and maybe it's because the author of this, Darren Byler is buddies with Zenz and the two cite each other constantly, and that they're both head members of a group called the Uighur Scholar Working Group under the Center for Global Policy, an American foreign policy think tank in Washington, but I'm a bit skeptical
Do you have any actual fucking evidence for any of these claims or are you just assuming that, well, something must be wrong because China Bad?
What, exactly, are we denying? What basis do you have for claiming that Uyghurs or Tibetans have been culturally genocided? Genocide of any kind is a serious fucking accusation that requires serious fucking evidence to substantiate it.
Saying things like “its for their own good” with regards to Uighur internment is like saying locking up Japanese in WW2 is “for their own good”, or forcing whitewashing on Native American children is “for their own good”.
No, it's fucking not, because China isn't indiscriminately putting Uyghurs in concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or stealing their children, and in echoing this baseless accusation you're minimizing the genocides of the United States.
They literally just have reeducation programs for actual Al-Qaeda-linked ETIM Wahhabi terrorists, and there's a reason why not a single majority-Muslim nation on Earth has condemned them for this. Look at the fucking countries that are making these accusations and tell me they're being made in good faith.
kinda crazy how these chapos are not trusting the us press after the US press repeatedly and deliberately uses debunked sources as if they were credible
but pretending that nothing is happening is just as bad.
???????????????????????????????? MANUFACTURING CONSENT IN THE COLD WAR is actually happening unlike the strawchapo
Equating what is (reportedly) going on in Xinjiang to residential schools or to japanese internment is not a good comparison.
In residential schools the whole point was to remove culture with no other reason than to clear out areas for white expansion backed by imperialism. The terror was the point - babies torn away from parents, no history, culture, language allowed.
For Japanese internment, the point was that they presumed there was a threat from Japanese nationals, and cruelly rounded up 100% innocent people where there was no violence or attacks committed, and no interference from japan itself. It was purely a tool to subjugate a group for the government to create an enemy and steal their property.
For Xinjiang, we don't really know the extent of what's going on. Almost certainly there aren't millions of detainees being full on tortured and murdered. On the other end, there is certainly more to it than just rounding up proven terrorists and enabling instruction to allow them better chances at success and peace within chinese society.
But, the reported purpose is to deradicalize real terrorists that have proven CIA backing and have causes thousands of deaths of innocent people in Xinjiang. This is an actual problem, and not just made up or in the name of imperialism.
There are certainly issues with innocent people being detained as well, and there is surely abuse in some of the facilities - and this should be more transparent and dealt with. However it also appears that there really is support of keeping culture, and support of keeping religion and language, and also real educational opportunities to work towards deradicalization.
I think the problem is we don't really know if exactly what's going on, but I haven't seen any reports that seem reputable that describe some kind of mass torture rings, and I have little reason to doubt the Chinese governments goals and motivation of the program.
Is there abuse? Are there some people getting caught up in it that shouldn't? Probably, and the opacity of the program leads to a situation where this is difficult to fix and that's bad.
So, I don't know.
But, the reported purpose is to deradicalize real terrorists
That's literally what Macron is referred to when he played with the thought of putting muslims into camps.
I mean, they have actual checklists that determine if you get scooped up or not. Ones anyone can look up. They're trying to stop mass murder, not destroy Islam in China.
The checklists include things like "Spreading religious fanaticism through irregular beards or name selection" and "Generalizing the concept of Halal".
If you think that criminalising beards and the concept of halal isn't discrimnatory against muslims then I dunno what to tell you.
Except it's a checklist, so that's pretty fuckin' disingenuous to only include the easiest ones to fall into.
It's not a checklist, it's a list of things that are prohibited so each one is prohibited on it's own. I haven't seen anything that says you need to hit a certain amount but if you have a source that says that I'd be happy to look into it further.
And I think that a neoliberal right-wing government would have a different implementation than a protocommunist government.
Is there a sale on bad faith arguments today?
You know damn well Sandy Hook wasnt an intentional attack by another nation.
Bury your head in the sand if you want.
an intentional attack by another nation.
Socialists try not to externalize internal contradictions challenge
Reminder that the US was literally bombing the Uighurs not 3 years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/02/10/bombing-of-chinese-separatists-in-afghanistan-is-a-sign-of-how-trumps-war-there-has-changed/
"There will be no safe haven for any terrorist group," Gen. John Nicholson, the head of U.S. Forces in Afghanistan, said in a statement Thursday. “We continue to hunt them across the country.”
Here's another one from the same time period from another news source, just to add to the pile.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighur-militants-well-taliban-fighters-afghanistan-n845876
The U.S. military says it carried out a series of punishing bombings last weekend of Taliban militant camps that also support a separatist Chinese terror group.
Hecker said the strikes "support Afghanistan in reassuring its neighbors that it is not a safe sanctuary for terrorists who want to carry out cross border operations."
Hecker added that the destruction of the training facilities would prevent "terrorists from planning any acts near the border with China and Tajikistan."
Oh how quickly yesterday's "Chinese terror group" that was worth a "punishing bombing" becomes a sphere of concern when suddenly we hate China now. :bean-think:
Anyway, considering Xinjiang has literally 25,000 mosques, the Uighurs were exempted from the one-child policy, and their population (both numbers and %) has been steadily increasing since the 1950s, i feel like suddenly turning around and doing a genocide out of the blue is gonna require more proof, to me, than some grainy photos of mistranslated schools.
Something sus definitely could be happening, but zenz literally got caught lying about scales/numbers and didn't retract it. That's not how science works, comrades. That's not how it works at all. If this is really happening, there is no reason to lie. Zenz doesn't even speak or read Chinese, if this is really happening, why the fuck isn't there an ACTUAL expert getting us all this info???? Like, i'm not gonna trust someone who talked to literally 8 people as his source that millions are missing. That... that is not real science. It would not pass peer review or get published in a scientific journal. How the fuck can i trust that, or any publication that puts their trust in this guy. Seriously, it's like interviewing the My Pillow guy about his official stance on Venezuala or something. Like this motherfucker is a nobody, literally works for the victims of communism foundation, and isn't even respected in his field.
There's definitely proof that the Amerikkka was rendering immigrants infertile in ICE though. That's 100% real AND IMO a better focus of activist energy unless you live if you live here.
They are terrorists who if left alone would keep recruiting and turn Xinjiang into East Turkestan, reinstate sharia law, mandatory veiling, beatings, and all those things that were abolished in the great proletarian cultural revolution.
You can't just do nothing about them. Historically the imperialist countries have dealt with these types by either bombing them to hell or helping them achieve their goals against a geopolitical enemy.
I don't know about India, are Western intelligence agencies also propping up the terrorists there in an attempt to further balkanise their country?
I don't see many people in this thread uncritically worshipping China. Everyone seems aware that it's an operation of a large scale and excesses are inevitably committed. However it's not like we can do an experiment to see how much is too much: toeing the line and failing implies the subordination of millions of women to Islamist extremism, maybe a regression to warlordism and slave markets like in Libya and Yemen, and the almost certain loss of credibility of the CPC towards their citizens.
And from the way this is reported it becomes very difficult to tell apart policy from local excesses and corruption.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the history of the partition, but isn't Pakistan itself a British attempt at helping an Islamic fundamentalist movement form their own state in the manner most likely to spark ethnic an religious tension against the Indian revolutionaries?
based on some videos ive seen of tourists going to the area and asking uighur taxi drivers and clubbers how they feel about stuff, its basically summed up by them as : 'yeah there were a bunch of nationalists who bombed urumqi and killed/wounded 3k people and that led to a crackdown, its safer here now and the police are mostly uighur but there are still some ethnic tensions and distrust'
some kids were interviewed, uighurs, han, hui, etc. kids were all hanging out and didnt really understand why the grownups were still angry at each other basically
a lot of nightclubs (especially lgbt ones) are usually pretty heavily guarded because they used to get attacked a lot
Ooh, link if you can. I'm really struggling to find non-Zenz stuff
Okay but the people making these arguments should realize how similar it sounds to colonialism apologia and not throw hissy fits when people point that out and maybe work on making their case better.
Sorry I'm not American and I'm not about to study what some racists in America said 70+ years ago before making a point on China
It’s not about what they said, it’s about the fact they did shit similar to this in the past and we don’t hold back from calling it abhorrent. If we want to make the case that this instance is different are arguments have to be stronger than the garbage they pulled out of their ass to excuse it.
I mean if you’re gonna blow that off you might as well say “I just assume what China is doing isn’t bad because I like China”. Which I mean fine but just own up to it.
vaguely like colonialism apologia
Sometimes it’s a bit more than vaguely bro.
Find me a source that is not from Zenz, the CIA, or a CIA equivalent in a white nation that says anything other than "normal imprisonment problems that we should be critical of in every country" is happening. I'll wait. Forever. There is no source. It's made up. It's manufacturing consent and pushing a frankly quite racist agenda. It's using the idpol libs love about how we want to care about Muslims to push an anti China stance.
If you actually care about Muslims maybe go talk about or educate people about real issues plaguing real Muslims, like how there is an actual genocide happening in Yemen, or the huge racial disparities and violence being caused in India. If you actually care about prison camps and torture camps you don't even have to look outside your borders; the US imprisons more than anyone in the world and our prisoners come out with massive amounts of trauma. These have to be called torture camps, they exist solely to break people further.
Feel free to start posting actual facts, or feel free to fuck off with this racist propaganda.
there is an actual genocide happening in Yemen
American sanctions were already genocide before covid
Oh yeah, the genocide in Yemen is 100% US funded. Who is selling the bombs, the training, and the logistics? Those bombs don't have "Made in China" stamped on them
The Chinese government admitted to increased police and surveillance, with re-education schools for those they deem at risk. The Chinese government did not claim responsibility for erasing Uyghur culture, because this did not happen.
Imagine being so lib that you think a program meant to help integrate a marginalized community into society in a way that humanizes them is genocide
And the narrative you're spreading is the US and allied government line.
Yeah sure whatever. What’s worse than anything else is not taking a hardline against capital’s anti China rhetoric. It doesn’t matter if it’s true. What matters is not letting them hurt China. Currently speaking the CCP is our best hope. Anarchist, Marxist, whatever. They’re the only world power that at a minimum pays lip service to socialism. I personally think they’re playing a long game and using state capitalism to develop. There’s a very real possibility of me being delusional out of the desperate hope for somebody with power being on our side.
At the end of the day, the capitalists are already saying the sort of shit you’re saying. If that’s your true belief there are already people far more powerful and far more invested in destroying China saying it. Just don’t add to it yeah?
Just imagine is the ussr still existed, Indonesia was still socialist, and China also existed. The socialists in India are also quite strong. Together they would make up almost half of the world population....just imagine if the CIA hadn't won the 3rd world war
What’s worse than anything else is not taking a hardline against capital’s anti China rhetoric.
I love it when posts that explicitly take that hardline like OP get dismissed because the line isn't hard enough
…where else? The better question to ask is what else? Anarchism today only exists in a few provinces in Mexico, what else is there besides ML?
Native American residential schools
Teaching a traditionally rural and under-served people skills to put them in contact with the rest of your economy is not the same thing as taking their children away en masse and forbidding any contact with their native culture.
And operating a parole program where you send petty criminals from that population to the adult schools to give them economic opportunities beyond joining a gang or a terrorist organization is not the same thing as indiscriminately taking a certain ethnicity off the streets to be locked up.
The only things China has been credibly accused of are the very things that the CPC openly admits to - increased surveillance and police activity in the region. Anyone equating that to a genocide, cultural or otherwise, is doing genocide denialism.
The sterilization story stunk of preemptive projection regarding the ICE camp.
What exactly is the "ethnically-targeted destruction of an ethnicity’s culture" here referring to? Can you give me a list of what exactly is being destroyed? Because I see this claim and its always vague, and people think that Uyghur muslims cant practice their religion or culture or language in Xinjiang anymore, which is all wrong.
I think "cultural genocide" and "ethnically-targeted destruction of an ethnicity’s culture" would imply things like banning religious and cultural norms and practices which amounts to the destruction of their cultural and ethnic identities. I dont think any of this indicates anything like that since people are still practicing and studying their religion and culture openly, the language is an official language and translated along Mandarin everywhere in public, mosques are not being closed down, Uyghurs as an ethnic group are not displaced and segregated.
I think theres lots of conflating things happening in this narrative that always seem to amount to broad speculations that get applied to the entire situation. If some people are actually oppressed and imprisoned than everything becomes a concentration camp where Uyghurs are taken to be genocided, even if the vast amount of any established center was always to actually provide means for people to study and get job training to improve their economic disparity which was always at the center of this entire conflict. I think its the same sort of broad speculative narratives applied to the idea of "cultural genocide" as well.
It was bad empanada. The original debates on genocide definitions tried to exclude cultural aspects because of concern it would apply to the residential schools, us oppression of native Americans, Swedish oppression of the Sami, ussr oppression of certain siberian and central Asian cultures, and several others.
It's hard not to think this is all bullshit when every 'source' ends up leading back to the CIA.
Can you describe what is happening other than - "It's bad, but not the CIA lies level of bad".
Because that really sounds like someone just giving support to outright lies, without wanting to attach themselves to the obviously fake parts of it like organ extraction, etc.
Explain how this isn't just another 'Iraqi WMD' Situation - because it stinks to high hell like one.
Thank you for the explanation of your position here, it is the best take for this being an overreach on China's part I've seen.
However, keep in mind that examples of ethnic oppression have also been wildly exaggerated by those with ill intentions. Westerners have a tendency to immediately draw lines to their own nations' history of genocides and violently reject anything that even resembles treading that path. If China doesn't intend to carry it out to such an extent, that characterization would give the wrong conclusion.
Even if you were to outright deny all criticism of China's Xijiang region as CIA OPs; the stuff that do we know about this region which China has slowly been releasing to the public and international community still isn't a good look.
I find it slightly hypocritical that leftists spend their days railing against the American empire, and imagine if you will America did some shit like this? "We're rounding up Muslim refugees in and around Minnesota in reeducation camps, don't worry their getting a full education and the Muslim nations have all signed onto it being a good program." That shit wouldn't fly for a second, everybody would be calling it a genocide, but because it's China and their flag is big and red and has nice shiny stars on it, it's okay because something something western CIA op something something.
I don't think what is happening in China is good by any means, and I wish that China would start straying away from it's iron fist politics but if your going to round up a major ethic minority and wipe off it's culture off the face of the earth, they honestly could be doing it alot worse and with alot more blood, that being said to stan China's camp interment program is cringe as fuck and being a cheeky memey genocide denying China defender makes you look like an asshole, even if all the western reporting is yellow journalism and trying to strike up a war.
Long story short, inform people that the media frenzy on China is a CIA OP meant to stoke a new cold war with China because China is quite literally going to surpass the United States in global dominance in a couple years, but be mindfully critical of China's iron fist politics, so it's honestly best not stan or hate a nation that literlly doesn't personally effect you in any way shape or form, its crank as fuck.
-7DeadlyFetishes
It's even funnier that the person doing it has an antiracist username
:spidermanspointing:
I for one like the China fights. Exposing the worst qualities of a community with one easy trick!
Re-education camps are preferable to the western option: killing them indiscriminately. The fact is you cannot allow religious fundamentalist extremists to carry out attacks on regular people and push for insurrection. Locking them up, breaking the bonds forged by extremism, and teaching them skills are all good for the country and world.
I mean the United States is supporting the Al Qaeda group in that area, you cannot understand that and think "China bad" for protecting their citizens while humanely dealing with a real, deadly problem.
They aren't tossing them into incinerators. They aren't locked up forever a la guantanimo. It's a deprograming platform. If you've got an alternative I'd love to hear it.
Perfect theory exists in the frictionless plane of the internet, and only there. The real world is not perfect. China has to do something to protect their country, because people exist that want to foment unrest and kill people. How do you deal with that?
How do you deal with that?
Dealing with ethnic, national, and religious divisions is a key part of the project of building socialism, and something that can only be dealt with on a proletarian, socialist basis. The idea is to raise conditions for all workers by involving all workers, regardless of background, in the project of socialist transformation via working class control of the economy and society.
China is obviously not resolving these divisions on a socialist basis, which is why, sensationalized takes on genocide aside, you can see the Uighur minority facing real inequality, discrimination, and degrees of repression in China. This is much like how minority groups face inequality, discrimination, and repression in other capitalist nations. Capitalism breeds these problems by pitting worker against worker, and the dominant social/productive relations in China are capitalist.
And there are concrete examples of this question being resolved from the USSR—it’s not a question that exists only on the frictionless plane of the internet.
Then doing nothing, allowing terrorism (including targeting LGBT) and conservative subjugation of women, is a greater-evilism.
If you stick a gun to my head and said that you must chose between reeducation camps and unadulterated slaughter, I’d choose re-education, that being said much of the information China has released concerning their re-education program is preachy at best, I.E “These schools teach us why the CCP is best for leading the nation! :-)” and at worst, well we don’t know. All western journalism is Ahmed Chalabi level lies, you can’t trust any of it, but to totally believe China’s position saying that it’s deradicalization and nothing more is Naive and crank as fuck. These re-education centers are thinly veiled internment camps and I have no doubt that racism runs rampant between the Han and Uighurs, and some amount of abuse or discrimination most certainly happens behind the scenes, and this isn’t some Adrian Zenz shit, Chinese cultural isolation and historical racial tension is an unfortunate staple of Chinese society.
Believing fully what China says is ridiculous, you should be just as critical of them as you would the West, and you should always call out western lies of genocide for what they are; a call to war.
-7DeadlyFetishes
If you think China doesn't affect the entire Western world, you're in wacko land.
A viable Socialst alternative is the best chance for change in the material conditions of the West, and the CIA understands that well enough to fight against the 'viable alternative' with every bit of strength they have.
Meeting a liar halfway doesn't solve anything, it just leaves reality behind.
Yes, China doesn’t actively interfere in most westerners lives. Had this Uighur thing not entered the Western media space we wouldn’t even be talking about it, that’s how under the radar China is on the global stage.
-7DeadlyFetishes
Destroying culture? But they're actively combating imported wahhabism by way of generously funding traditional Uighur culture, right? The culture they're destroying is Saudi, ain't it? Additionally, the US is notably doing worse than whats described about the PRC by imperialist outlets, right? But our screams of genocide are more muted on forced hestorectomies than they areon a place I learned existed a few years ago.
As from my understanding, China has been zeroing out cultural Uighur landmarks like shrines, memorials, and graveyards, and building parks, government buildings etc. on them. I don’t know the specifics of what goes on inside the schools but judging by the Uighur first hand accounts from reporters education is centered around the CCP and the ideology of the party, did they reach Uighur culture in schools prior the crackdown? No clue. Most sources are either China or War Hawks, so I’ll go off what we know so far, even if that information is questionable at best.
-7DeadlyFetishes
Ohh, gotcha. Yeah, all of the PRC's support for Uighur culture I've read about as been outside of the schools, it's been funding for mosques, parades, pilgrimage, and such. Do you happen to have sources on the destruction of structures? I haven't seen those claims since early on (when the Guardian number was still just "up to 1mil detained"), and at the time it was another one of those "satelite images confirm..." cases, which Sun Fy later checked in on and thoroughly debunked after the construction on the structures had finished. But I can check into it and see if what you're talking about has been debunked or not if you give me whatcha got, comrade : ]
