It's perfectly fine to feel relieved that 1/3 of our government (which would also include darlings of the left like AOC and Ilhan Omar, by the way) wasn't raped/massacred on live TV during an autogolpe that could have legitimately seen a burgeoning fascist movement seize total unchecked power.
Seriously, cut the edgelord shit. He's a cop at the capitol building. His job is literally the last line of defense for our representatives. It's fine to give him credit where it's due. You can acknowledge that he did enough to stave off an angry mob from overthrowing the government to usher in a fascist totalitarian state without being a boot-licking cop-lover. It's fine. You can also acknowledge that the cop/secret service agent that head-shotted that WonderFascistWoman in the dome also did what he had to do. If you want to argue that the armed representatives of the state should not be allowed to use deadly force against the general public, that's one thing. But its usually understood that the one time that they ARE allowed to use deadly force is during an event where the state is actively being overthrown.
If your job is to protect the interests of the state, then preventing a mob from overthrowing the state is exactly what you're expected to do. A socialist government would also need an armed force to prevent its overthrow.
It's okay to acknowledge this and to discern this from the use of wanton force against communities of color for the interests of capital and white supremacy. These two scenarios aren't remotely similar and its stupid to pretend that they are.
If you are going to say fuck every cop that did their job during a literal attempt at overthrowing the government, then it stands to reason that you think that an angry mob of fascists attempting to install a white-ethno-state should go completely unopposed. And if you think that, then I have to question what motivates you to be a part of the left.
That you believe what was essentially a glorified temper tantrum — and yes, a temper tantrum. I'm aware that people died. Countless people die everyday across the world to gratify the needs and fickle temperament of the United States, — in support of the incumbent President was anything resembling the 'state actively being overthrown' by fascists is utterly inane.
A coup d'etat is an seizure of power, and there was no instant where any of the participating parties came close to claiming control of any government apparatus.
There was no seizure of infrastructure, such as streets or railroads or communication hubs.
There was no subduing or defection of armed bodies; the whole farce was broken up by nightfall by riot cops.
There was no provisions or organization whatsoever for instituting a new government.
It was an utterly farcical affair that only came to fruition by the implicit enabling of the country's leader and it's majority party to drum up enthusiasm among their constituents , which was promptly dispersed virtually without difficulty the moment it was deemed they became a bit too rowdy and completely disavowed.
The narrative of 'WE ALMOST LITERALLY HAD A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP' is useful for liberals like you, because it permits you to frame a utterly heinous institution that is responsible for a multitude of actual fascist coups that have killed millions of people across the world as a sort of victim and imply we should have gratitude for it's continued existence.
That you believe what was essentially a glorified temper tantrum — and yes, a temper tantrum
Just gonna go ahead and downplay the threat of fascist violence in the name of white supremacy. Probably because you're a white kid yourself.
A coup d’etat is an seizure of power
You don't know what an autogolpe is. You need to look that shit up. One branch of government sent a violent mob of off-duty cops and militarized sympathizers to overthrow another branch of government.
That's not a temper-tantrum.
The narrative of ‘WE ALMOST LITERALLY HAD A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP’ is useful for liberals like you, because it permits you to frame a utterly heinous institution that is responsible for a multitude of actual fascist coups that have killed millions of people across the world as a sort of victim and imply we should have gratitude for it’s continued existence
I can fucking hear your whiteness from here. If you are okay with a liberal institution falling into avowed fascists hands, then I genuinely question your solidarity with the communities you claim to be in alliance with. I am perfectly capable of critiquing the liberal state while also not wanting to see it seized by a burgeoning fascist movement. Apparently that's too heavy a lift for you, though
Just gonna go ahead and downplay the threat of fascist violence in the name of white supremacy. Probably because you’re a white kid yourself.
I'm a POC. Fortunately, I'm entirely accustomed to being condescended to by liberals or I might be a bit annoyed.
You don’t know what an autogolpe is. You need to look that shit up. One branch of government sent a violent mob of off-duty cops and militarized sympathizers to overthrow another branch of government.
Once again, there was no element of even an attempt to tangibly seize control of any lever of power whatsoever. It isn't a videogame or a movie where occupying a building grants you control over a country of over three hundred million people.
That’s not a temper-tantrum.
Yeah, it is. We just live in a country where the temper-tantrums of white petit-bourgeoisie over electoralism results in death.
I can fucking hear your whiteness from here. If you are okay with a liberal institution falling into avowed fascists hands, then I genuinely question your solidarity with the communities you claim to be in alliance with. I am perfectly capable of critiquing the liberal state while also not wanting to see it seized by a burgeoning fascist movement. Apparently that’s too heavy a lift for you, though
Imagine being this much of a racist prick, lmao. You think AOC and Ilhan are 'darlings of the left,' trip all yourself idolizing cops saving 'our representation' and 'our' government (don't laugh!) and your account history is full of liberal apologism.
Once again, there was no element of even an attempt to tangibly seize control of any lever of power whatsoever. It isn’t a videogame or a movie where occupying a building grants you control over a country of over three hundred million people.
Their objective was to force legislators to overrule the counting of the vote . They wanted to force Pence to ignore the votes by threatening to execute him. It may not have been a good plan, but it was a plan. The hard-right does not need the same level of strategic planning to hold on to power as the left needs to seize power. They don't need to seize airwaves or infrastructure because they were simply attempting to hold on to power. This is the key difference between a traditional coup and an autogolpe
Imagine being this much of a racist prick, lmao.
I'm hispanic, but whatever. I'm not the one minimizing the very real and imminent threat of white-supremacist violence that is mainstreaming into American consciousness.
You think AOC and Ilhan are ‘darlings of the left’ and your account history is full of liberal apologism.
They are darlings of the left that is still interested in participating in electoral politics. You're on a message board of a podcast that went hard in the paint for Bernie...which, last time I checked, was participating in electoral politics.
So, uhh....having a hard time hearing your criticisms of revolutionary action and taking it seriously, especially when that criticism involves downplaying the threat of (dis)organized right-wing violence.
And my post history is not liberal apologia...in fact, the only time I ever come around these boards anymore is when I am concerned about the fascist apologia that is radiating from members who claim to be left who want to hand-wave away growing fascist violence.
Their objective was to force legislators to overrule the counting of the vote . They wanted to force Pence to ignore the votes by threatening to execute him. It may not have been a good plan, but it was a plan. The hard-right does not need the same level of strategic planning to hold on to power as the left needs to seize power. They don’t need to seize airwaves or infrastructure because they were simply attempting to hold on to power.
It was a physically impossible plan that failed miserably at the first hurdle, and there's absolutely no valuable utility in portraying members of organs responsible for abetting and enforcing far-right nationalism and capitalist hegemony as heroically preventing a fascist coup.
So, uhh…having a hard time hearing your criticisms of revolutionary action and taking it seriously, especially when that criticism involves downplaying the threat of (dis)organized right-wing violence.
Having a hard time taking you seriously as a person after reveling in calling me, a (half) black person, a 'white kid' and claiming you could 'smell my whiteness' after lodging issue with your absurd narrative and lionizing of the governmental organs responsible for untold oppression on people who look like me, then shrugging it off with 'I'm hispanic, whatever.'
And my post history is not liberal apologia…in fact, the only time I ever come around these boards anymore is when I am concerned about the fascist apologia that is radiating from members who claim to be left who want to hand-wave away growing fascist violence.
Where's all your posts bringing attention to the underreported lynchings of black men in the wake of the George Floyd protests? Or the executions of demonstrators after Ferguson? Or do all the theatrics only come out to lament the 'threat' posed to the imperialist superpower and it's government?
It was a physically impossible plan that failed miserably at the first hurdle
This is irrelevant. They still had a plan. It failed. Hence it was a failed autogolpe. History is littered with failed seizures of power, and they are often followed up with successful seizures of power if not properly addressed.
and there’s absolutely no valuable utility in portraying members of organs responsible for abetting and enforcing far-right nationalism and capitalist hegemony as heroically preventing a fascist coup.
Even within your own language you use the term fascist coup. That should be a tell. You can be opposed to fascism and also be opposed to the policing
Having a hard time taking you seriously as a person after reveling in calling me, a (half) black person, a ‘white kid’ and claiming you could ‘smell my whiteness’ ....
Look, I have no idea what you look like, and I don't really care. All I know is that you seem to be downplaying the threat of white-nationalist violence and equating it with meaningless temper tantrums for some reason. Fine. Whatever. You can downplay it if you want, but I'm not about to make that mistake.
Where’s all your posts bringing attention to the underreported lynchings of black men in the wake of the George Floyd protests? Or the executions of demonstrators after Ferguson? Or do all the theatrics only come out to lament the ‘threat’ posed to the imperialist superpower and it’s government?
Seriously, dude? Is your knock on me that I don't post enough? Is my posting volume not up to your standards? Have I not logged enough posts to be taken seriously? My very first response that set off this entire shit-show chain of events I acknowledge and oppose how policing is a form of enforcing the interests of capital and white supremacy. But I guess I'm sorry if I don't have chapo receipts from events that happened before this website was even online.
The president sabotaging response while the congressional police refuse to protect congress could easily have lead to actual murders or other attacks on congress.
At that point it's a massive state of emergency and trump is still the guy in charge.
It was a coup attempt. Coups fail all the fucking time.
For the sake of the people spectating, let me explain why I'm arguing this and why it's important.
There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Fascism's role is and how it relates to the current situation.
Fascism is not an ideology that is independent of or diametrically composed to liberalism; rather it's a mechanism of capital to be leveraged by the bourgeoisie to supplement their hegemony and serve as a bulwark against leftism. It is not a genuinely popular movement, but masquerades as one. It adopts the trappings of one and often co-opts leftist rhetoric but it is incapable of, materially or ideologically, sustaining any sort of insurrection against the bourgeoisie state because it supports the bourgeoisie state and thus cannot nor does it have any interest in popular uprising.
Fascists can only take power by grafting themselves onto — and not usurping — existing institutions, often with the support of the bourgeoisie if not directly installed by them. We see this example in Hitler's Germany, who was funded by the billion by industrialists and permitted into government as Chancellor for fear of the KDP, Italy where Mussolini came into power by coalition government and instituted the typical bourgeoisie-friendly economic policies under the auspices of a liberal financial advisor, Japan, Chile and the Chicago boys, etc.
Premature Fascist attempts at violent seizures of power would miserably fail, only for them to get remarkably lenient treatment and be gradually reintroduced to combat leftism. The SDP, that unleashed the Freikorps on the Spartakists, would ban the German Communist Party's paramilitary wing and very soon after lift Hitler's ban on public speaking. Liberals will show disgust to Fascism, but always side with them against socialism because their common interest and purpose is the preservation of the propertied classes.
This is also why you see the Proud Boys and other similar groups cooperating with police officers in protests — again, despite the occasional rhetoric effort at portraying themselves as against government overreach — because they're an auxiliary of the bourgeois state and far from being able to supplant it, cannot exist without it. It is the bourgeois media that platforms it's adherents, again feigning disgust but we know perfectly well that they're more than capable of completely blocking out anything they actually don't want people to hear about like Modi's prosecution of Muslims and the newest pink wave in South America, and lavish money upon their figureheads.
The reactionaries were called to the capitol and enabled merely to serve their utility for intimidation and the stirring of fervor and passion in the Republican base. These reactionaries acted too prematurely, were promptly disavowed and dispersed without difficulty — and again, as usual, with practically a slap on the wrist because the bourgeois still has use for them.
The issue with the narrative of a credible Fascist coup getting fended off is that it implies that they exist as an independent and opposed force to the American state and liberalism, and they do not. It implies that the American bourgeois republic is something that is a 'better' alternative to Fascism, when the reality is that these reactionary nationalists are an vital instrument that helps to guarantee the survival of the capital and the bourgeois republic. If they posed any genuine threat to the current order, if Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi truly believed these people were actually an dangerous threat to their livelihoods and safeties, then there would have been a thorough investigation and purging of all responsible parties and organs. But there wasn't, because they're not — they're useful.
I am not understating the threat of Fascism or white nationalists. They are dangerous and I know this very well — My mother's birth certificate lists her race as 'negro' and I live not very far away from places where black men were lynched and transgender black women were killed last year in response to the George Floyd protests — but they cannot be effectively combated if we cannot recognize their actual nature and how they operate as a component in capital's myriad methods of hegemony.
At the risk of being labelled a debate guy I'm gonna talk about a couple of things you said.
A coup d’etat is an seizure of power, and there was no instant where any of the participating parties came close to claiming control of any government apparatus.
That explicitly wasn't the goal. Look at what Yeltsin did to Russia, parliament was opposed to him so he got rid of the parliament. These people weren't trying to form a new government they were trying to empower Trump.
There was no subduing or defection of armed bodies; the whole farce was broken up by nightfall by riot cops.
There was though. There was deliberate actions taken by the capitol police, there was actions taken to delay response.
Considering their goal (as much as they had a goal) seems to be hostages and/or murder I think the sabotaged police response is extremely relevant and is probably the best argument for what makes this a legitimate attack vs a riot.
The narrative of ‘WE ALMOST LITERALLY HAD A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP’ is useful for liberals like you, because it permits you to frame a utterly heinous institution that is responsible for a multitude of actual fascist coups that have killed millions of people across the world as a sort of victim and imply we should have gratitude for it’s continued existence.
As much as we all shit on Amerikkka we should also acknowledge that collapse of America is likely to lead to immense amounts of suffering and death.
Acknowledging the attack for what it was cuts both ways. You can't insult people and call them libs and misrepresent their arguments while also refusing to actually do any real analysis of the situation. I don't think many (any?) are doing lib shit like claiming PTSD or demanding terrorism charges for everyone involved.
If they came through the right door and found someone like Omar, Tlaib, AOC, Bernie, etc... they probably kill them. Probably in horrific fashion with the entire country watching. I don't think it should be swept aside as lib shit, even though I think the democrats are and will handle it in awful fashion.
I hope you wouldn't be labeled a debate guy for elaborating on request, haha.
That explicitly wasn’t the goal. Look at what Yeltsin did to Russia, parliament was opposed to him so he got rid of the parliament. These people weren’t trying to form a new government they were trying to empower Trump.
Yeltsin had control of the military, state media and etc. Some of the most fierce fighting (which would result in well over a hundred dead) occurred for control over a TV media complex which would play a crucial role in broadcasting pro-Yeltsin propaganda throughout the ordeal and Yeltsin's forces would end up besieging barricading, seizing bridges to ensure lockdown and etc.
Whether it's a autogolpe or coup d'etat, any meaningful attempt at seizing power actually requires an meaningful attempt at seizing power.
There was though. There was deliberate actions taken by the capitol police, there was actions taken to delay response.
Considering their goal (as much as they had a goal) seems to be hostages and/or murder I think the sabotaged police response is extremely relevant and is probably the best argument for what makes this a legitimate attack vs a riot.
It was absolutely an legitimate attack. What I'm saying and explained in my post above is that the idea that this was an genuine, as in with any remotely coherent plan or chance at success, attempt to overthrow the state/American government by an force that is opposed to is a fundamental misunderstanding of American reactionaries and their role.
As much as we all shit on Amerikkka we should also acknowledge that collapse of America is likely to lead to immense amounts of suffering and death.
The continued existence of America leads to immense amounts of suffering and death, not only as a imperialist superpower responsible for upholding an hegemony that results in the preventable deaths of tens of millions every year but the inherent utter unsustainability of it's system both economically and geologically means that it's collapse and the consequences are also inevitable. There's no sense in subscribing to revolutionary communism if you reject the circumstances that would actually grant an opportunity for revolution.
Acknowledging the attack for what it was cuts both ways. You can’t insult people and call them libs and misrepresent their arguments while also refusing to actually do any real analysis of the situation. I don’t think many (any?) are doing lib shit like claiming PTSD or demanding terrorism charges for everyone involved.
Is this not 'real analysis?' https://hexbear.net/post/82941/comment/897804
If they came through the right door and found someone like Omar, Tlaib, AOC, Bernie, etc… they probably kill them. Probably in horrific fashion with the entire country watching. I don’t think it should be swept aside as lib shit, even though I think the democrats are and will handle it in awful fashion.
All these people will approve budget bills that fund drone strikes on weddings, hospitals and orphanages. None of the resulting massacred peasant tenant farmers or guest workers will receive remotely the same attention precisely because they don't have cameras and the eyes of an entire country upon them.
The continued existence of America leads to immense amounts of suffering and death, not only as a imperialist superpower responsible for upholding an hegemony that results in the preventable deaths of tens of millions every year but the inherent utter unsustainability of it’s system both economically and geologically means that it’s collapse and the consequences are also inevitable. There’s no sense in subscribing to revolutionary communism if you reject the circumstances that would actually grant an opportunity for revolution.
We don't have the systems in place to deal with a revolutionary situation, which means we can't possibly win.
The problem is that Americas collapse could have almost unimaginable negative consequences for humanity, and those odds go way up when the only people with a platform or a base are insane reactionaries.
Maybe I am not a US citizen, so why the fuck would I care about an utopian situation in which the US is socialist when that isn't about to happen? Till then ACAB, till then I will warn against fascists and still jump with joy if the right persons die (of Coronavirus).
How would these "seize total unchecked power", this isn't a video game, capturing the government HQ dosen't all of a sudden make you control the government
Do you think if they somehow managed to occupy the Capitol for long enough; the military, police, and capital would be forced to do whatever they say and let them usher in whatever state they wish?
Ahh...just gonna play down the entire thing. Not even going to entertain the possibility that they could have murdered every progressive congressperson and kneecapped what little left representation we have?
They DID capture the capitol. No, some small-business shitheads didn't set up a provisional government.
But you are on some serious shit if you think we should just ignore what happened as if it won't happen again. Failed coups when not properly addressed often turn into successful coups. Ignore that at your own peril
I think downplaying what happened is a bit cold hearted and not the left I’m used to. Remeber AoC was questioning whether she was going to be able to get the chance to have children.
Some on the left seem to want to downplay fascism or reactionary threats lately just to shit on liberals and Democrats.Wrong tactic in a time of rising bigotry and right-wing conscious
The true right is finally rearing it’s head in America and some people on this forum continue to only want to shit-post about liberals, Jesus Christ
The true right is finally resting it’s head in America and some people on this forum continue to only want to shit-post about liberals, Jesus christ
This is one of the primary reasons why I don't even bother coming here anymore. Some of the people in this board still think it's the Obama years, which requires them to completely ignore the rising tide of rightwing thought that has swept the country
I like it here, but i also think anti-fascism is just an important part of the left as anything else. I’m a white dude, but I’m also a drug addict and mentally ill. I wouldn’t last long in a fascist regime. Meaning I know what it’s like to be othered and not some spoiled upper middle class Wasp kid
Seems like you leave little room for nuance in your analysis of people. I also find it bizarre a supposed leftist has such a cold hearted response to a young progressive politician scared for her life. People like AOC aren’t idealized leftists, but they are the best we have for now.
The people who entered the capital were fascists looking for blood and mayhem. We shouldn’t be showing them sympathy or downplaying them. These are fascists and they are the new face of the Republican Party. They deserve derision and scorn. Leftists are anti-fascist period. We don’t ally with them just because they have revolutionary ambitions like we do
You have irony-poisoned yourself stupid. They seized the capitol by force. People died. They weren't invited in. Just because they were stupid about it and couldn't execute a longer plan doesn't mean their immediate objective of taking the building failed. Ignore that if you want but it's what happened.
No, this is a fair point. There were many within the ranks who aided and abetted and there has to be a reckoning with that. Still though, many of the insurrectionists fought through police lines and it was quite apparent that they (the insurrectionists) were a hostile force.
Imagine thinking the Dedicated security for congress completely abrogating that responsibility and putting them in danger is an argument against "this was a coup attempt".
It's probably the single biggest thing that sets this apart from a riot or a tantrum or whatever else people want to call it.
They walked around taking photos and staying in the roped tourist lanes.
They beat a cop to death with a fire extinguisher.
I don't understand the obsessive need to downplay what happened any more than I understand the libs need to act like it was some sort of life changing PTSD inducing event just by watching it on TV.
More plausible scenario is that they get ahold of a couple of democrats and murder them.
Then you probably have a shitload of very very angry people on the streets, because they are rightfully angry.
Now we have fascists killing members of congress backed up by the president, angry mobs in the streets, and 800k cops who are mostly eager to abuse and kill members of those mobs.
but you know, that sort of instability and violence doesn't really matter becasue some dude tased himself in the balls.
have YOU seen the video of it? She was breaching the last line of defense before getting to legislators. What....pray tell, do you think she was going to do if she were not stopped?
God damn, quit bending over backwards to infantalize armed fascists storming the capitol. She was not selling loose cigarettes. She was not trying to enter her car. She was trying to overthrow the governement.
If you try to overthrow the government, you should expect one of two outcomes:
You succeed
You die
She died, and I don't feel bad for her. Neither should you. If you sympathize with a dead fascist then I really have to question your leanings.
if 1/3 of the government is assassinated, then you effectively have a power-vacuum. Whether or not they held the building like the fucking Alamo is irrelevant. We would have been thrown into a crisis
Also if she gets through that window, you'd better believe that every chud behind her is going to follow suit. Her dying for doing chud shit was very far from the worst possible outcome.
If that were a crowd of leftists, they would have been mowed down before they even made it into the building.
There is a disturbing trend on this board to hand-wave away fascist violence because of how buffoonish it often is and because it is often directed at a liberalism that is often hostile to leftism. But that is a dangerous reflex, and I'm not sure if the people engaging in that strand of thinking are even aware of the bedfellows they are attracting.
American socialist revolutionaries are terrified of there finally being a power vacuum and a crisis to exploit.
Because we have zero chance of filling it. None. It can't happen. If you rip apart America you're left with a bunch of insane reactionary warlords with piles of nukes.
End up with some crazy evangelical theocrat who decides they were chosen by god to bring on the apocalypse or setup a white christian ethnostate that makes Saudi Arabia look good.
If that were a crowd of leftists, they would have been mowed down before they even made it into the building.
Yeah, no doubt.
In the video it's clear to see there were at least four armed police right behind her, ready to detain if needed. But they didn't begin gunning down people because they weren't actually in danger.
God damn, quit bending over backwards to infantalize armed fascists storming the capitol.
You're the one who came in here to cape for the cop who saved Mike Pence while also justifying the police gunning down an unarmed woman. Who let you in here?
I have seen the video, and for anyone else that wants to: [NSFW, CW: shooting, death] https://banned.video/watch?id=5ff6857e00bac0328da8e888
The shooting occurs at 39:11, but watch a bit before for context.
There were literally cops right next to the protestors there. If they needed to detain the woman they could have without the cop way down the hall gunning her in the head.
If you really advocate for killing people who are unarmed and pose no threat then fuck off, you're not actually a leftist. I don't feel bad for her, but I'd never justify her death.
The cops at the front of the door abandoned their posts. They were not going to stop her because they abdicated their duty....hence why they were BEHIND her and not in front of her.
I'm not caping for a cop. I'm just saying it's probably a good thing that armed fascists didn't execute members of the government in order to install by force a 2nd Trump term.
You, on the other hand, are caping for a fascist who was storming the capitol trying to assassinate the entire line of succession while wearing a literal CAPE.
If you really advocate for killing people who are unarmed and pose no threat then fuck off
THEY POSED A FUCKING THREAT YOU GODDAMN IMBECILE.
What, you think they wanted to sit down for a cup of tea? They wanted to assassinate legislators.
DO NOT, under any circumstance, try to equate armed fascists with minority communities who are routinely harassed and brutalized by police. Not even close to the same thing and if you can't make that distinction then I should stop talking to you because you are baby-brained moron.
"duuuhhh a cop "saved" AOC so some cops are good mkay" congratulations :amerikkka-clap: to our resident crypto-chuds for spending a whole month wracking your brains just come up with the most media-conformist horseshit take of the year so far
Because yes, lets HELP the media rewrite history by pretending that it wasn't pigs who let the "cOup mOb" into the building, and that the class character of these people wasn't exclusively made up of, COPS, off-duty cops, former cops, the fail children of cops, the fail mothers of cops, the uncles of cops who also happen to be cops, Military cops, and cars dealership owners who are all informants for cops
FUCK THAT PIG AND FUCK HIS COLLEAGUES.....and fuck the media and their convenient bullshit hysterics :acab:
Love kropotkin, but i don't think he would successfully fight off an armed insurrection of fascists hell-bent on installing an authoritarian dictatorship by giving them bread
It was just a meme, but since we are talking more seriously now, I think it bears reflecting whether getting caught up in the electoral/symbolic chess game the government has constructed here is beneficial to people of our political persuasion.
It's part of a narrative which reifies liberal/centrist power, and moreover there was the woman who was executed by the police (i believe she was unarmed? Not sure). it makes people of our perspective seem incoherent in our critique/understanding of the state.
but since we are talking more seriously now, I think it bears reflecting whether getting caught up in the electoral/symbolic chess game the government has constructed here is beneficial to people of our political persuasion.
If I have to choose between upholding electoralism or ceding ground to fascists who are willing to seize power by force to permanently install minority rule, i'm picking electoralism. Every time.
I don't see how. I think Trump SHOULD be convicted and the senators and congresspeople who aided and abetted should be removed from office. This is a historic opportunity to purge congress of belligerent actors who are hostile to democratic self governance and I think it's the Democratic Party would be whiffing on a major opportunity to consolidate power by molly-whopping the republicans into submission.
The fact that I don't think they'll seize that opportunity doesn't really change my desire to see them do it. Not sure how else I could "participate" beyond my role as a citizen.
You can't participate, it's their game-- not yours. Get me?
As far as this vengeance/power-grab idea, it would probably not be a good idea to poke the sleeping bear of domestic insurgency like that. Just like Obama did with Bush, Biden will be cutting some backroom deal with Trump, or at least attempting to. Accountability thru the law will be a last resort, and probably not happen. I mean, from their perspective, they got the peaceful transfer of power now, they don't need more confrontation with other bourgeois forces. The symbolic conflict has, essentially, served its purpose for them.
no. there is a delineation that must be made between bourgeois democracy and fascism. This distinction is critical to understand when discussing political epochs
This is besides the point because, again, you do not get to pick, and moreover, working class people have no political agent or representative within bourgeois democracy.
There is no one to "do" anything except watch C-SPAN, when it comes to the issue of jan 6th, because the only people who were there were the congress, the rioters, and the police. We don't have a presence in the situation, therefore there is no point to discussing "what should we do". there's no we yet.
It's perfectly fine to feel relieved that 1/3 of our government (which would also include darlings of the left like AOC and Ilhan Omar, by the way) wasn't raped/massacred on live TV during an autogolpe that could have legitimately seen a burgeoning fascist movement seize total unchecked power.
Seriously, cut the edgelord shit. He's a cop at the capitol building. His job is literally the last line of defense for our representatives. It's fine to give him credit where it's due. You can acknowledge that he did enough to stave off an angry mob from overthrowing the government to usher in a fascist totalitarian state without being a boot-licking cop-lover. It's fine. You can also acknowledge that the cop/secret service agent that head-shotted that WonderFascistWoman in the dome also did what he had to do. If you want to argue that the armed representatives of the state should not be allowed to use deadly force against the general public, that's one thing. But its usually understood that the one time that they ARE allowed to use deadly force is during an event where the state is actively being overthrown.
If your job is to protect the interests of the state, then preventing a mob from overthrowing the state is exactly what you're expected to do. A socialist government would also need an armed force to prevent its overthrow. It's okay to acknowledge this and to discern this from the use of wanton force against communities of color for the interests of capital and white supremacy. These two scenarios aren't remotely similar and its stupid to pretend that they are.
If you are going to say fuck every cop that did their job during a literal attempt at overthrowing the government, then it stands to reason that you think that an angry mob of fascists attempting to install a white-ethno-state should go completely unopposed. And if you think that, then I have to question what motivates you to be a part of the left.
That you believe what was essentially a glorified temper tantrum — and yes, a temper tantrum. I'm aware that people died. Countless people die everyday across the world to gratify the needs and fickle temperament of the United States, — in support of the incumbent President was anything resembling the 'state actively being overthrown' by fascists is utterly inane.
A coup d'etat is an seizure of power, and there was no instant where any of the participating parties came close to claiming control of any government apparatus.
There was no seizure of infrastructure, such as streets or railroads or communication hubs.
There was no subduing or defection of armed bodies; the whole farce was broken up by nightfall by riot cops.
There was no provisions or organization whatsoever for instituting a new government.
It was an utterly farcical affair that only came to fruition by the implicit enabling of the country's leader and it's majority party to drum up enthusiasm among their constituents , which was promptly dispersed virtually without difficulty the moment it was deemed they became a bit too rowdy and completely disavowed.
The narrative of 'WE ALMOST LITERALLY HAD A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP' is useful for liberals like you, because it permits you to frame a utterly heinous institution that is responsible for a multitude of actual fascist coups that have killed millions of people across the world as a sort of victim and imply we should have gratitude for it's continued existence.
Just gonna go ahead and downplay the threat of fascist violence in the name of white supremacy. Probably because you're a white kid yourself.
You don't know what an autogolpe is. You need to look that shit up. One branch of government sent a violent mob of off-duty cops and militarized sympathizers to overthrow another branch of government.
That's not a temper-tantrum.
I can fucking hear your whiteness from here. If you are okay with a liberal institution falling into avowed fascists hands, then I genuinely question your solidarity with the communities you claim to be in alliance with. I am perfectly capable of critiquing the liberal state while also not wanting to see it seized by a burgeoning fascist movement. Apparently that's too heavy a lift for you, though
I'm a POC. Fortunately, I'm entirely accustomed to being condescended to by liberals or I might be a bit annoyed.
Once again, there was no element of even an attempt to tangibly seize control of any lever of power whatsoever. It isn't a videogame or a movie where occupying a building grants you control over a country of over three hundred million people.
Yeah, it is. We just live in a country where the temper-tantrums of white petit-bourgeoisie over electoralism results in death.
Imagine being this much of a racist prick, lmao. You think AOC and Ilhan are 'darlings of the left,' trip all yourself idolizing cops saving 'our representation' and 'our' government (don't laugh!) and your account history is full of liberal apologism.
Go back to /r/neoliberal.
Their objective was to force legislators to overrule the counting of the vote . They wanted to force Pence to ignore the votes by threatening to execute him. It may not have been a good plan, but it was a plan. The hard-right does not need the same level of strategic planning to hold on to power as the left needs to seize power. They don't need to seize airwaves or infrastructure because they were simply attempting to hold on to power. This is the key difference between a traditional coup and an autogolpe
I'm hispanic, but whatever. I'm not the one minimizing the very real and imminent threat of white-supremacist violence that is mainstreaming into American consciousness.
They are darlings of the left that is still interested in participating in electoral politics. You're on a message board of a podcast that went hard in the paint for Bernie...which, last time I checked, was participating in electoral politics.
So, uhh....having a hard time hearing your criticisms of revolutionary action and taking it seriously, especially when that criticism involves downplaying the threat of (dis)organized right-wing violence.
And my post history is not liberal apologia...in fact, the only time I ever come around these boards anymore is when I am concerned about the fascist apologia that is radiating from members who claim to be left who want to hand-wave away growing fascist violence.
It was a physically impossible plan that failed miserably at the first hurdle, and there's absolutely no valuable utility in portraying members of organs responsible for abetting and enforcing far-right nationalism and capitalist hegemony as heroically preventing a fascist coup.
Having a hard time taking you seriously as a person after reveling in calling me, a (half) black person, a 'white kid' and claiming you could 'smell my whiteness' after lodging issue with your absurd narrative and lionizing of the governmental organs responsible for untold oppression on people who look like me, then shrugging it off with 'I'm hispanic, whatever.'
Where's all your posts bringing attention to the underreported lynchings of black men in the wake of the George Floyd protests? Or the executions of demonstrators after Ferguson? Or do all the theatrics only come out to lament the 'threat' posed to the imperialist superpower and it's government?
We need downvotes back so I know whose side I'm supposed to take here
I'm just :sicko-hair: reading this thread
This is irrelevant. They still had a plan. It failed. Hence it was a failed autogolpe. History is littered with failed seizures of power, and they are often followed up with successful seizures of power if not properly addressed.
Even within your own language you use the term fascist coup. That should be a tell. You can be opposed to fascism and also be opposed to the policing
Look, I have no idea what you look like, and I don't really care. All I know is that you seem to be downplaying the threat of white-nationalist violence and equating it with meaningless temper tantrums for some reason. Fine. Whatever. You can downplay it if you want, but I'm not about to make that mistake.
Seriously, dude? Is your knock on me that I don't post enough? Is my posting volume not up to your standards? Have I not logged enough posts to be taken seriously? My very first response that set off this entire shit-show chain of events I acknowledge and oppose how policing is a form of enforcing the interests of capital and white supremacy. But I guess I'm sorry if I don't have chapo receipts from events that happened before this website was even online.
The president sabotaging response while the congressional police refuse to protect congress could easily have lead to actual murders or other attacks on congress.
At that point it's a massive state of emergency and trump is still the guy in charge.
It was a coup attempt. Coups fail all the fucking time.
I think you are attributing to white privilege when really it's just chapo style contrarianism.
For the sake of the people spectating, let me explain why I'm arguing this and why it's important.
There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Fascism's role is and how it relates to the current situation.
Fascism is not an ideology that is independent of or diametrically composed to liberalism; rather it's a mechanism of capital to be leveraged by the bourgeoisie to supplement their hegemony and serve as a bulwark against leftism. It is not a genuinely popular movement, but masquerades as one. It adopts the trappings of one and often co-opts leftist rhetoric but it is incapable of, materially or ideologically, sustaining any sort of insurrection against the bourgeoisie state because it supports the bourgeoisie state and thus cannot nor does it have any interest in popular uprising.
Fascists can only take power by grafting themselves onto — and not usurping — existing institutions, often with the support of the bourgeoisie if not directly installed by them. We see this example in Hitler's Germany, who was funded by the billion by industrialists and permitted into government as Chancellor for fear of the KDP, Italy where Mussolini came into power by coalition government and instituted the typical bourgeoisie-friendly economic policies under the auspices of a liberal financial advisor, Japan, Chile and the Chicago boys, etc.
Premature Fascist attempts at violent seizures of power would miserably fail, only for them to get remarkably lenient treatment and be gradually reintroduced to combat leftism. The SDP, that unleashed the Freikorps on the Spartakists, would ban the German Communist Party's paramilitary wing and very soon after lift Hitler's ban on public speaking. Liberals will show disgust to Fascism, but always side with them against socialism because their common interest and purpose is the preservation of the propertied classes.
This is also why you see the Proud Boys and other similar groups cooperating with police officers in protests — again, despite the occasional rhetoric effort at portraying themselves as against government overreach — because they're an auxiliary of the bourgeois state and far from being able to supplant it, cannot exist without it. It is the bourgeois media that platforms it's adherents, again feigning disgust but we know perfectly well that they're more than capable of completely blocking out anything they actually don't want people to hear about like Modi's prosecution of Muslims and the newest pink wave in South America, and lavish money upon their figureheads.
The reactionaries were called to the capitol and enabled merely to serve their utility for intimidation and the stirring of fervor and passion in the Republican base. These reactionaries acted too prematurely, were promptly disavowed and dispersed without difficulty — and again, as usual, with practically a slap on the wrist because the bourgeois still has use for them.
The issue with the narrative of a credible Fascist coup getting fended off is that it implies that they exist as an independent and opposed force to the American state and liberalism, and they do not. It implies that the American bourgeois republic is something that is a 'better' alternative to Fascism, when the reality is that these reactionary nationalists are an vital instrument that helps to guarantee the survival of the capital and the bourgeois republic. If they posed any genuine threat to the current order, if Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi truly believed these people were actually an dangerous threat to their livelihoods and safeties, then there would have been a thorough investigation and purging of all responsible parties and organs. But there wasn't, because they're not — they're useful.
I am not understating the threat of Fascism or white nationalists. They are dangerous and I know this very well — My mother's birth certificate lists her race as 'negro' and I live not very far away from places where black men were lynched and transgender black women were killed last year in response to the George Floyd protests — but they cannot be effectively combated if we cannot recognize their actual nature and how they operate as a component in capital's myriad methods of hegemony.
No you're just completely ignoring what actually happened because you think it makes you a better leftist or something.
it doesn't. You have a shitty take on this.
What do you mean?
At the risk of being labelled a debate guy I'm gonna talk about a couple of things you said.
That explicitly wasn't the goal. Look at what Yeltsin did to Russia, parliament was opposed to him so he got rid of the parliament. These people weren't trying to form a new government they were trying to empower Trump.
There was though. There was deliberate actions taken by the capitol police, there was actions taken to delay response.
Considering their goal (as much as they had a goal) seems to be hostages and/or murder I think the sabotaged police response is extremely relevant and is probably the best argument for what makes this a legitimate attack vs a riot.
As much as we all shit on Amerikkka we should also acknowledge that collapse of America is likely to lead to immense amounts of suffering and death.
Acknowledging the attack for what it was cuts both ways. You can't insult people and call them libs and misrepresent their arguments while also refusing to actually do any real analysis of the situation. I don't think many (any?) are doing lib shit like claiming PTSD or demanding terrorism charges for everyone involved.
If they came through the right door and found someone like Omar, Tlaib, AOC, Bernie, etc... they probably kill them. Probably in horrific fashion with the entire country watching. I don't think it should be swept aside as lib shit, even though I think the democrats are and will handle it in awful fashion.
I hope you wouldn't be labeled a debate guy for elaborating on request, haha.
Yeltsin had control of the military, state media and etc. Some of the most fierce fighting (which would result in well over a hundred dead) occurred for control over a TV media complex which would play a crucial role in broadcasting pro-Yeltsin propaganda throughout the ordeal and Yeltsin's forces would end up besieging barricading, seizing bridges to ensure lockdown and etc.
Whether it's a autogolpe or coup d'etat, any meaningful attempt at seizing power actually requires an meaningful attempt at seizing power.
It was absolutely an legitimate attack. What I'm saying and explained in my post above is that the idea that this was an genuine, as in with any remotely coherent plan or chance at success, attempt to overthrow the state/American government by an force that is opposed to is a fundamental misunderstanding of American reactionaries and their role.
The continued existence of America leads to immense amounts of suffering and death, not only as a imperialist superpower responsible for upholding an hegemony that results in the preventable deaths of tens of millions every year but the inherent utter unsustainability of it's system both economically and geologically means that it's collapse and the consequences are also inevitable. There's no sense in subscribing to revolutionary communism if you reject the circumstances that would actually grant an opportunity for revolution.
Is this not 'real analysis?' https://hexbear.net/post/82941/comment/897804
All these people will approve budget bills that fund drone strikes on weddings, hospitals and orphanages. None of the resulting massacred peasant tenant farmers or guest workers will receive remotely the same attention precisely because they don't have cameras and the eyes of an entire country upon them.
We don't have the systems in place to deal with a revolutionary situation, which means we can't possibly win.
The problem is that Americas collapse could have almost unimaginable negative consequences for humanity, and those odds go way up when the only people with a platform or a base are insane reactionaries.
Or perhaps chapo style contrarianism is really just hipster socialist white privilege.
I urge you to read Catiline's post.
Well of course it is, but not everyone who adopts it has to be white.
fair enough. still a problem, though.
Getting really tired of the influx of stupidpol people on this forum.
We always need to be anti-racist and anti-fascist at the forefront. That doesn’t come with concessions or excuses
Maybe I am not a US citizen, so why the fuck would I care about an utopian situation in which the US is socialist when that isn't about to happen? Till then ACAB, till then I will warn against fascists and still jump with joy if the right persons die (of Coronavirus).
How would these "seize total unchecked power", this isn't a video game, capturing the government HQ dosen't all of a sudden make you control the government
Do you think if they somehow managed to occupy the Capitol for long enough; the military, police, and capital would be forced to do whatever they say and let them usher in whatever state they wish?
Ahh...just gonna play down the entire thing. Not even going to entertain the possibility that they could have murdered every progressive congressperson and kneecapped what little left representation we have?
Yes dumbass because that didn't happen. They walked around taking photos and staying in the roped tourist lanes.
You must be on some strong shit to think those protestors could have captured the capitol and instituted national fascism.
They DID capture the capitol. No, some small-business shitheads didn't set up a provisional government.
But you are on some serious shit if you think we should just ignore what happened as if it won't happen again. Failed coups when not properly addressed often turn into successful coups. Ignore that at your own peril
Fuck off and log out
I think downplaying what happened is a bit cold hearted and not the left I’m used to. Remeber AoC was questioning whether she was going to be able to get the chance to have children.
Some on the left seem to want to downplay fascism or reactionary threats lately just to shit on liberals and Democrats.Wrong tactic in a time of rising bigotry and right-wing conscious
The true right is finally rearing it’s head in America and some people on this forum continue to only want to shit-post about liberals, Jesus Christ
This is one of the primary reasons why I don't even bother coming here anymore. Some of the people in this board still think it's the Obama years, which requires them to completely ignore the rising tide of rightwing thought that has swept the country
I like it here, but i also think anti-fascism is just an important part of the left as anything else. I’m a white dude, but I’m also a drug addict and mentally ill. I wouldn’t last long in a fascist regime. Meaning I know what it’s like to be othered and not some spoiled upper middle class Wasp kid
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Seems like you leave little room for nuance in your analysis of people. I also find it bizarre a supposed leftist has such a cold hearted response to a young progressive politician scared for her life. People like AOC aren’t idealized leftists, but they are the best we have for now.
The people who entered the capital were fascists looking for blood and mayhem. We shouldn’t be showing them sympathy or downplaying them. These are fascists and they are the new face of the Republican Party. They deserve derision and scorn. Leftists are anti-fascist period. We don’t ally with them just because they have revolutionary ambitions like we do
You have irony-poisoned yourself stupid. They seized the capitol by force. People died. They weren't invited in. Just because they were stupid about it and couldn't execute a longer plan doesn't mean their immediate objective of taking the building failed. Ignore that if you want but it's what happened.
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No, this is a fair point. There were many within the ranks who aided and abetted and there has to be a reckoning with that. Still though, many of the insurrectionists fought through police lines and it was quite apparent that they (the insurrectionists) were a hostile force.
Imagine thinking the Dedicated security for congress completely abrogating that responsibility and putting them in danger is an argument against "this was a coup attempt".
It's probably the single biggest thing that sets this apart from a riot or a tantrum or whatever else people want to call it.
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lol
They beat a cop to death with a fire extinguisher.
I don't understand the obsessive need to downplay what happened any more than I understand the libs need to act like it was some sort of life changing PTSD inducing event just by watching it on TV.
More plausible scenario is that they get ahold of a couple of democrats and murder them.
Then you probably have a shitload of very very angry people on the streets, because they are rightfully angry.
Now we have fascists killing members of congress backed up by the president, angry mobs in the streets, and 800k cops who are mostly eager to abuse and kill members of those mobs.
but you know, that sort of instability and violence doesn't really matter becasue some dude tased himself in the balls.
Why are we defending the interests of the United States again?
Ah shit they don't have a custom emoji for the air jerking off motion, better luck next time I guess
What the fuck?
Have you even seen the video of it? That woman posed no threat to him from down the hallway and he shot her.
have YOU seen the video of it? She was breaching the last line of defense before getting to legislators. What....pray tell, do you think she was going to do if she were not stopped?
God damn, quit bending over backwards to infantalize armed fascists storming the capitol. She was not selling loose cigarettes. She was not trying to enter her car. She was trying to overthrow the governement.
If you try to overthrow the government, you should expect one of two outcomes:
She died, and I don't feel bad for her. Neither should you. If you sympathize with a dead fascist then I really have to question your leanings.
Obviously install a fully functional fascist regime because as we know systems of governance function on king of the hill rules
if 1/3 of the government is assassinated, then you effectively have a power-vacuum. Whether or not they held the building like the fucking Alamo is irrelevant. We would have been thrown into a crisis
If they had killed a member of congress the entire thing could have blown wide open.
Not like a civil war, just massive chaos and destabilization.
ok whats the constitution say about havin a vote when a bunch of the legislature just got executed
Also if she gets through that window, you'd better believe that every chud behind her is going to follow suit. Her dying for doing chud shit was very far from the worst possible outcome.
If that were a crowd of leftists, they would have been mowed down before they even made it into the building.
There is a disturbing trend on this board to hand-wave away fascist violence because of how buffoonish it often is and because it is often directed at a liberalism that is often hostile to leftism. But that is a dangerous reflex, and I'm not sure if the people engaging in that strand of thinking are even aware of the bedfellows they are attracting.
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Supposed leftists profess to desire a revolution but dread the conditions that could possibly make one feasible.
Because we have zero chance of filling it. None. It can't happen. If you rip apart America you're left with a bunch of insane reactionary warlords with piles of nukes.
End up with some crazy evangelical theocrat who decides they were chosen by god to bring on the apocalypse or setup a white christian ethnostate that makes Saudi Arabia look good.
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The Nazis were well-known level heads, who were never embarrassingly defeated
It's also that these people are really just not particularly threatening.
That zip tie guy is now blaming his mother.
The dismissal based on buffoonery is concerning when you realize that the Nazis favorite thing to do was go out and get shitfaced and beat people.
I mean Hitler liked to carry around a fucking riding crop.
Yeah, no doubt.
In the video it's clear to see there were at least four armed police right behind her, ready to detain if needed. But they didn't begin gunning down people because they weren't actually in danger.
Yeah, that's the really fucked part.
You can defend the cop who shot her, claim he was defending others from a violent mob.
No excuse for the cops who didn't tell her to back the fuck off.
You're the one who came in here to cape for the cop who saved Mike Pence while also justifying the police gunning down an unarmed woman. Who let you in here?
I have seen the video, and for anyone else that wants to: [NSFW, CW: shooting, death] https://banned.video/watch?id=5ff6857e00bac0328da8e888
The shooting occurs at 39:11, but watch a bit before for context.
There were literally cops right next to the protestors there. If they needed to detain the woman they could have without the cop way down the hall gunning her in the head.
If you really advocate for killing people who are unarmed and pose no threat then fuck off, you're not actually a leftist. I don't feel bad for her, but I'd never justify her death.
The cops at the front of the door abandoned their posts. They were not going to stop her because they abdicated their duty....hence why they were BEHIND her and not in front of her.
I'm not caping for a cop. I'm just saying it's probably a good thing that armed fascists didn't execute members of the government in order to install by force a 2nd Trump term.
You, on the other hand, are caping for a fascist who was storming the capitol trying to assassinate the entire line of succession while wearing a literal CAPE.
THEY POSED A FUCKING THREAT YOU GODDAMN IMBECILE.
What, you think they wanted to sit down for a cup of tea? They wanted to assassinate legislators.
DO NOT, under any circumstance, try to equate armed fascists with minority communities who are routinely harassed and brutalized by police. Not even close to the same thing and if you can't make that distinction then I should stop talking to you because you are baby-brained moron.
"duuuhhh a cop "saved" AOC so some cops are good mkay" congratulations :amerikkka-clap: to our resident crypto-chuds for spending a whole month wracking your brains just come up with the most media-conformist horseshit take of the year so far
Because yes, lets HELP the media rewrite history by pretending that it wasn't pigs who let the "cOup mOb" into the building, and that the class character of these people wasn't exclusively made up of, COPS, off-duty cops, former cops, the fail children of cops, the fail mothers of cops, the uncles of cops who also happen to be cops, Military cops, and cars dealership owners who are all informants for cops
FUCK THAT PIG AND FUCK HIS COLLEAGUES.....and fuck the media and their convenient bullshit hysterics :acab:
:anarchists:
Love kropotkin, but i don't think he would successfully fight off an armed insurrection of fascists hell-bent on installing an authoritarian dictatorship by giving them bread
It was just a meme, but since we are talking more seriously now, I think it bears reflecting whether getting caught up in the electoral/symbolic chess game the government has constructed here is beneficial to people of our political persuasion.
It's part of a narrative which reifies liberal/centrist power, and moreover there was the woman who was executed by the police (i believe she was unarmed? Not sure). it makes people of our perspective seem incoherent in our critique/understanding of the state.
If I have to choose between upholding electoralism or ceding ground to fascists who are willing to seize power by force to permanently install minority rule, i'm picking electoralism. Every time.
I mean, you aren't upholding or ceding anything though. You're just participating discursively after the fact. This is my point, you see?
I don't see how. I think Trump SHOULD be convicted and the senators and congresspeople who aided and abetted should be removed from office. This is a historic opportunity to purge congress of belligerent actors who are hostile to democratic self governance and I think it's the Democratic Party would be whiffing on a major opportunity to consolidate power by molly-whopping the republicans into submission.
The fact that I don't think they'll seize that opportunity doesn't really change my desire to see them do it. Not sure how else I could "participate" beyond my role as a citizen.
You can't participate, it's their game-- not yours. Get me?
As far as this vengeance/power-grab idea, it would probably not be a good idea to poke the sleeping bear of domestic insurgency like that. Just like Obama did with Bush, Biden will be cutting some backroom deal with Trump, or at least attempting to. Accountability thru the law will be a last resort, and probably not happen. I mean, from their perspective, they got the peaceful transfer of power now, they don't need more confrontation with other bourgeois forces. The symbolic conflict has, essentially, served its purpose for them.
no they didn't. That phrase has to mean something. The autogolpe attempt, by definition, renders the transfer of power hostile, not peaceful
The point is: You don't get to pick. there is no manager to talk to.
no. there is a delineation that must be made between bourgeois democracy and fascism. This distinction is critical to understand when discussing political epochs
This is besides the point because, again, you do not get to pick, and moreover, working class people have no political agent or representative within bourgeois democracy.
There is no one to "do" anything except watch C-SPAN, when it comes to the issue of jan 6th, because the only people who were there were the congress, the rioters, and the police. We don't have a presence in the situation, therefore there is no point to discussing "what should we do". there's no we yet.
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:cat-vibing: