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Do you ever just feel like shit about how much effort you have to put in just to be a girl? I wish I could just exist.
Thinking about it is putting me back into depression.
I kinda did, so I just started existing. Makeup? Naw. Body? Unshaven. I still do haircare of course, but with this hair it wouldn't matter what gender I am. Outfits? Jeans or trackpants and an oversized t-shirt. Maybe a flannel and a tank if I'm feeling dykey.
I read a lot of posts on the womens' autism subs about cis women who dress and exist this way, and sort of appropriated it for myself. It feels really good, I like that I can just exist, zero effort. I still do have days where I dress up a bit, but y'know ✨
felt. it's easier for me than some binary trans femmes. I rly like being a futch tomboy gender gremlin. i rarely wear makeup. i rarely shave other than my face. I tried out skirts and stuff for a bit earlier in transition but just ended up gravitating back towards black jeans, big pants and black t shirts and it makes me happy:) all power to the high femmes out there but I'm honestly grateful personally for how comfortable I am putting not much effort into my fits/presentation and being content.
Being a futch tomboy gender gremlin FUCKS SO HARD
it's great, often comfy too. I also like that I can swap stuff around and present different ways, presentation is fun to play with.
gender gremlin gang
I've been inhabiting this space of mind more and more and it has been wonderful. Big recommend
It slaps honestly, like shedding the artifice of feminine expectations and going, I guess you would call it "natural" lets me feel femme in a different, cool way. Kinda "1970s feminist but aweaome" way. Very healthy ✨
I could say some /tttt/ brainrot shit right now, but I won't
you want me to be mean to you?
Yeah honestly, let's go. I can do it, I'm curious to see what you say and pretty sure I'll have a good rebuttal.
I was gonna say
that's easy for a youngshit passoid to say
The intensity of transvestigation increases proportionally with transgender visibility. This implies a transvestigation singularity in the future in which all cis and trans women will be unable to pass.
At which point passing narratives will collapse right?
Yes I presume so.
I will celeberate that demise
I second that, big time.
Alright. So. I'm nowhere near whatever this amalgamation of nonsense is. So I can speak from experience.
I'm in my mid-30s. I started transitioning 2 years ago. I have a massive body ravaged by testosterone to just be huge and wide. I'm talking I'm 5'10" and have a rib cage that's easily over 40" in circumference without issue. Probably closer to 42" or so. My shoulders are wide and I have a fairly rectangular body that's slowly shaping into an hourglass shape. And I pass.
The sheer amount of effort I've had to put in to pass is staggering. I've dedicated an enormous amount of my life over the past two years just to get to this point. I've meticulously learned how to put on makeup. I've picked up gesturing and body movements. I forced myself to voice train, refusing to ever use my "old voice" ever again. I learned how to my hair even if it is rudimentary knowledge at best. I threw out my old wardrobe slowly over time and replaced it with fem clothes. I forced myself to go out into public with all of the above even if I knew I wouldn't pass at the time because I knew it would eventually pay off.
I genuinely wish I could show you before and after pictures of myself. I was a manly man just a couple of years ago, and now I can stealth without issue (aside from a slouch due to a deteriorating spine, but that's beside the point). Sure, some people have to put more effort into it than others, but like, most of us are moving towards the same goal. You just need to identify what you need to work on most, actively work towards it, and you will eventually achieve your goal.
Well yeah, ugly fuckin' terminology aside I do try to keep in mind that I do pass, tall and skinny. But also like... I pass, somehow? I have not done a lot of voice training, my figure is pretty androgynous, without a bra you could miss the boobs. The biggest thing I think is the long hair signals to people that I am femme, or "a girl" I guess, but I put so little effort into voice sometimes I'm surprised I don't get misgendered more often.
I have a very strong jaw, deep-set eyes and a not-small forehead though, so this isn't like I went through cis female puberty or anything. My pelvis is small, my arms are long. I was 17 when I started, Idk. My wife transitioned in her 30s and does this too, does she fit your term too?
Maybe there is hope for me
Of course there is, don't be a nerd
Any recommendations on reading autistic women’s experiences? Reading on autism is still frustratingly male centered, in my experience.
Uh not really sadly. I never drudged up any theory on the subject, unfortunately... Just what's left of the subs I guess, or like Uncomfortable Labels by Laura Kate Dale?
Thank youuuuu
There's two subreddits I read through ages ago, autsiminwomen and aspergirls ymmv but there was some good anecdotal conversation, I got a lot of good information from them.
:D Thank you!
Welcone ^^
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Even ciswomen have to put a ton of effort into it thanks to societal expectations. It sucks. Like, in the "beforetimes" I could just shower, throw on whatever and call it done. 20 minutes max.
Nowadays, I shower including shaving a good chunk of my body, long sit-in hair conditioner, and meticulous washing, I brush my hair, I blowdry my hair, I straighten my hair, I put on makeup, and I change out my earrings. Takes like 2 hours now granted some of that can be skipped if I'm not going out for the day.
And all that is just showering.
Know what though? It's so fucking worth it. I feel so much better when I look good and can show my face in public =w=
To some extent sure, but most cis woman can just wake up and be women if they want, the other stuff is just if they want to be attractive.
It doesn't really feel the same.
But a woman is isn't some magical creature that doesn't feel like shit after waking up and doesn't have to shower and do all the aforementioned stuff to get to that exact same feeling of conforming to societal expectations of what it means to be a woman. Women have to do so much extra invisible labour to "just be women" to the men around them. If you've spent a lot of time being categorised by the world around you as a man, you really might miss it. The amount of times I have seen women characters in media wake up with their hair and makeup done is honestly unbearable. The pressure is so real and the expectations are so high for what it means to be a woman – I'm sure you feel it in the depths of your soul. Just don't fool yourself into thinking cis women don't feel it too.
I grew up with three sisters and I can tell you right now I would kill to be able to wake up the way they do.
Would you care to elaborate? I'm interested in what you see as the essential woman-ness of your sisters that you lack. I hope that if you actually start naming these things you'll see how you're just a couple steps away from doing phrenology. Woman is a social category, not a biological one.
I'm gonna leave it there, because these brainworms are quite intense, but I hope you figure it out /g
A woman will still look like a woman no matter what.
They might not meet societal beauty standards, but no one will mistake them for men (except transvestigation loonies)
Sneak100 is correct, cis women get misgendered a lot more than 0% of the time. They do not "look like a woman" (a definition for which you have not provided) when they get mistaken for men. Women do not always look like women, that is just untrue.
misgendered by who? when? I've certainly never seen it.
By other cis people, all the time. Just because you don't have an anecdote doesn't mean it doesn't happen - cis women can have strong jaws or thick facial hair or thin hips or wide shoulders. They can have PCOS and abnormal testosterone levels. It happens now and then. How else could masc women even exist? And that's before cis women started kicking eachother out of bathrooms. You have not been around enough if you've never seen it.
I used to work with 2 cis women who were misgendered they would never pass in society. They were both married also...
You need to calm down and occupy yourself before you go too far, you're already insulting members here..
I know you're upset and feeling bad, but please take a break
edit: this was bitchy and grumbly. But it's fair to want to compare yourself to your peers and siblings, and this notion that you should only compare yourself to the most masculine-looking women out there, the few who get misgendered, rubs me wrong.
The point is more that passing is stupid and arbitrary and being brainwormed about it certainly doesn't help. Calling people "delusional" for saying that cis women do not always look like women, is itself out of touch with reality. Plus, comparing yourself to others, specifically cis women is usually a road to brainwormed shit.
Nobody is saying "only compare yourself to the most masc women", ffs.
Comment by sneak100:
Thank you!
Perhaps by you if you haven't noticed it. It certainly does happen.
I've seen it a ton given my mom has been gendered primarily as a man (including by gay men who hang out at gay bars, where surely they've seen lots of butch lesbians - its not just the hets who can't tell) since at least a teen. She's not intersex in anyway as far as I know. She gets misgendered in-person and over the phone all the time. I've never once seen her correct someone - so most people probably never realize their mistake. She's not the only one I've seen it happen to either. For example, I had a classmate who, when I first met them asked me to guess if they were a girl or a guy because of how frequently she was misgendered. I was confused because she looked obviously like a girl to me at the time, but I guess a lot of people have weird heuristics that just didn't work for her.
Yeah... that's literally not true at all
Removed by mod
Please do not get banned over this. You should do whatever helps you feel less bad instead of fighting people here.
yeah, guess I'll just inhale a bunch of copium and delude myself
Literally come back when you stop thinking all women innately and always "look like women", and quit being ridiculous.
Pretty sure you're just depressed and upset which I get, but I'm not gonna sit here and bullshit you. If you think this is "delusion" you haven't been around enough.
I hope you feel better soon.
THEY LITERALLY DO
They don't and you can't even define what you're talking about. Cis women have to shave and do their hair in flattering ways and consider their figures too; if your sisters wake up femme enough that's good for them but as SnowySkyes said, all cis women have to put in work to be seen as women.
whatever, may as well stick my nose in a good shit show (cw for complaining about transphobes)
Oh yea I remember one day my sister didn't shave and everyone thought she was a guy. And if they didn't they they/them'd her like some kind of circus freak.
You know it's different ash. It's not the same. Maybe some cis women have to put in some amount of work to not get misgendered sometimes. It's not the same.
I'd like to say I'm not angry, just sad about my own situation.
edit: this comment was made in a bad state and looking back at it, doesn't accurately communicate how I even feel very well. I could fix but have decided to leave it for context, but hopefully further down thread I explain what I mean better. Anyway I love you all.
Like I say, as long as you're not being shitty I won't be
I am still game to talk.
I don't, actually. Example myself: there have been times in the past that I have bothered to dress up and present femme and still got misgendered, which was crushing. By contrast, the last year or three I've woke up every day and not put on makeup, shaved or done anything else fancy, and it's been over a year since I was misgendered. Like cis women, even!
It's true that a cis woman not putting the work in might not literally correlate to her getting misgendered, but the same is often true of transfemmes. It's not uncommon to hear stories of people on HRT for several years slumming it in sweatpants like I do and still get gendered correctly.
This becomes more complicated without estrogen, because it does a lot of things that the average normo deems "female". At that point you do need to put in more work. But cis women still get misgendered. They are not magical beings.
Also cis people shittily using they/them as a weapon against trans people does not factor into this. And if someone uses they/them due to not knowing somebody's gender, that is generally okay.
EDIT: As an addendum, do transfemmes get misgendered more than cis women? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not trying to draw a direct equivalence. Like I was saying to Tomboymoder though, whether or not someone out in the world uses she/her or he/him is a huge dice roll, one that shakes out between your gender presentation, traits you have that might be considersd masc or femme, your voice, and the person's perceptions of gender. You are relying on the perception of an utter random.
And yes, it's definitely true that the starting line for a trans woman and a cis women are different, but the point is that the finish line is bullshit. A trans woman would have to put a tone more work, maybe even expensive surgeries to "pass", but if they do pass, they do it in the exact same way as a cis woman. A cis woman who also has to do a tonne of work to achieve this same standard, because it's unrealistic and harmful to everyone.
Thank you, yes absolutely
Don't forget some people have shit eyesight and hearing and legit have no clue what they're looking at
For some people its really if the blob standing before them looks like it has long hair or not
Classic elderly woman who thinks you're her granddaughter cause you have similar hair
As long as they don't call you sonny, at that, does it really matter? It's just a label and somebody you'll probably never meet again..
Okay good
Thank you. I could tell you were getting a little frustrated so... yaknow.
After like a decade of hrt? And I have to assume laser or something on your face (because you have said hrt doesn't change facial hair, right? I know if I didn't shave there's not a god damn thing I could do to pass). That is a considerable amount of work, and is not typical for cis women. And I guess I don't know how severe the changes are after 17, but that is still young enough for some bone changes, right? Which is impossible for me to ever get.
I did not mean it that way, sorry for not wording it right. But trans people who don't pass do get they/them'd, regardless of how the person intends it. And it still feels shitty, and still isn't the typical experience of cis women.
I agree a lot with sneak100's comment (which I see you also agree with?), the starting line is very different. "Catching up" is a ton of work. Maybe you are just talking about how it is after putting in a decade of work and I'm looking at the whole thing, decade of prep included.
A bit, but more exhausted than anything, low social battery, autism y'know...
Yes after nine going on ten years of hormones! You still end up getting stuff happening even this far in! The evil little thing I have to admit to here is that I never got facial hair. That's like the one thing I managed to fully escape. Shaving sucks badly and having facial hair can hugely impact passing, even though cis women have it sometimes too. Ask a cis woman how she feels about walking around with 5 o'clock shadow! Fwiw my wife sometimes skips shaving and it doesn't cause her to be misgendered, most people do not look that close. Shaving does suck, badly, and you are pre-HRT so passing will be harder for you. But many or even most cis women shave their faces every day. It's part of the beauty routine.
You would think I'd be young enough for bone changes, but nah not really. If phrenology's your interest, my shoulders are an inch or two wider than my pelvis, a lot of my hip width and figure generally is just muscle and fat moving to cool places. I have really long legs but typically masculine long arms to match. I'm lucky, but not absurdly so imo. I got a better luck of the draw on family honestly...
Uh no, that's not how that is supposed to work. Everyone should be they-them'd until you know their gender or pronouns, at which point you switch. I don't assume anyone's pronouns in day to day life myself. Anyone will get they/them'd at least once if the person is being decent. Cis women should get they/them'd too; nobody should assume anybody's gender, see. This is why pronoun pins are cool too.
I guess my point, in light of sneak100's comment, is that it's varying amounts of work for everyone, because passing is stupid and arbitrary and cisnormative. If you take HRT for a few years though, you might well be able to slack like I do and still get gendered right. Lots of trans people do. It is often true that trans women have to put in more work to pass though, which sucks, again cisnormativity. But Tomboymoder was saying that cis women somehow have an innate "looking like a woman" that they always have, that trans women do not somehow? That is some gender phrenology shit. Clearly, given me and my wife, it's not an assigned gender thing.
I try not to feel envious of other people in the mega but damn you make it hard.
I really do not feel like engaging with a lot of this, sorry. I understand what you are saying though.
Well sure trans women can get there (to where I can roll out of bed passing, even if not fully up to beauty standards. Like I do now with looking like a guy), with a whole bunch of work. I certainly need a whole bunch of work before I get to that point.
Also tbh I haven't read all of her recent comments so maybe she clarified and isn't saying what I am (and tbh I think we are talking about slightly different things)
You don't have to apologise to me, I'm here yapping cause I wanna help, and I'm happy to. I Love My Trans Comrades, even when they have brainworms or whatever, don't care tbh.
Haha sorry
if it's any consolation I still get my wife to go over my upper lip and pull black hairs now and then...
Yeah that's okay, no worries. Can leave it where it is, talk to me some other time, whatever's cool.
Most of that work I think comes from hormones, your hair, your presentation in terms of dress imo. Which is all stuff you either just wait for the effects of or can freely change. There's no reason transfemmes cannot roll out of bed and go be women just as the cis do, like sneak100 said it's the same ways of passing even if it takes more work for transfemmes. The extra work sucks, would be cool if you could just do it now but whadda ya do.
Well she did not specify what exactly it is that makes her sisters inherently womanly in the morning but not her
it's brainworms plain and simple.
Don't be, I'm glad not everyone here is in the exact situation I am, and I'm happy for you.
Yea I'd agree that's most of it. That just feels like a lot right now
being pre everything. It would be very cool. I'll get there though. With some work :)
Thank you
seeing some younger trans people here is really cool, my hope is that someday the majority of trans people will realise by their teens.
It is a lot
it's a whole process, it took me nearly a year from "im trans" -> actually getting HRT. You can also take it fully at your own speed though, you will get there 
God if we can live in a world where gender exploration is open and accepted enough for that to happen, what a better world that will be.
THE DREAM
Seeing older trans people here is really cool
I honestly do not know what I would do without you/them. It wouldn't be as good as it is that's for sure 
I wonder how long it will take me to get hrt. I suppose I already know I'm trans, don't I?
Yeah it's rad, I love how diverse the userbase in trans mega is honestly. Makes everything better
Uh it depends on where you are, best case you can go to an informed consent clinic or planned parenthood to get prescribed. And yes you do =)
The diversity is so good.
Less of a practical question and more of a "when are you going to come out and try, eggnog?" question. I will remember how to get hrt though :)
Looking at it again I have no idea how I expected that to be communicated.
Happens to the best of us =) I know you probably don't feel ready, but it might not hurt to look at options in your area, if ya wanna. So you're prepped when you do feel ready.
If you need help finding resources, lmk
Thank you! I appreciate it so much. Maybe I will soon, or at least know what resources I might have access to.
I can go a few days without shaving, you'd only notice it if you were up close. Many cis women have to shave or bleach their facial hair, along with body hair like arms/hands also.
Nobody will be able to assume your gender from your bones.. that is a myth
People use they/them in a number of ways, shitty people misgender regardless.. most misgendering would occur because of presentation but not exclusively. Many cis women get misgendered every day.. that's a fact.
they literally don't they literally don't they literally don't.
I am sorry, but this is just copium by trans people to try and conflate the two experiences. a women who doesn't do all that will probably be thought of as ugly, maybe, but they aren't gonna be mistaken for a dude.
Am I coping, is that what I'm doing? Do I strike you as coping? It's literally true, you're letting brainworms make you shitty and angry. All you can do is repeat yourself, be serious please.
My supervisor at my last job was a 30something mother of two with short hair, a PCOS sufferer and got misgendered somewhat frequently. You're being ridiculous, getting misgendered is not some unique experience for transfems. You know it isn't.
spoiler
I can find dozens of articles of cis women getting harassed cause people think they're men.
If it’s transvestigators in bathrooms I don’t want to hear it
Honestly, scratch what I was typing. I've been transitioned a long ass time at this point, you're just gonna have to accept that you're going to make it and will be fine, it is just unfortunately a slow process.
I just know more than you, take my word for it.
Youre projecting your own personal views of the world onto other peoples experience. I've felt the same way in the past, i often do, but its not good to ruminate on. My own therapist who is a short haired older lesbian often gets misgendered because of her hair for example.
Predicting who is a woman, or allowing other people to determine one's woman-ness is something we should not be giving energy to.
If someone misgenders you, either tell them, or let it slide and move on, they do not determine who you are. Thats a deterministic and fascist point of view.
Yikes. I'm going to leave this video here. It and others like it helped me unpack lots of similar evangelical themed transphobia brainworms in the past, so I wish you the best of luck with it as well.
saying my sisters can wake up and they just look like women isn't "evangelical themed transphobia brainworms", whatever the fuck that even means, it is literally just true.
Ahh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. It'd be nice if we didn't have to go through all the time and effort just to get to a point where we can just exist properly. We'll all get to that point eventually. Just gotta work hard to get there. Just persevere.
It's wild what society expects from people.
I found the idea really restrictive
I like to just wear what I want how I want. I wear makeup when I feel like wearing it, I cut my hair in a curly little bob because I think it suits me. I wear any kind of clothes I find comfortable for me (autistic comfort comes first) I love my perfume and smellies.
Dressing androgynous I get she/her'd regularly, but I'm agender, I don't wear a bra unless absolutely needed, and I shave the body hair when I feel like it
I don't conform by existing.
I'm basically a mormon girl with no makeup and a dress. If I might ask, how long are you on hrt?
I’ve been on a shitty dose of spiro and pills on and off for years, but I just recently have been taking cypro and injections for 3 months-ish
3mo stable is no time at all, you got this. quite a lot of people begin to pass around 2 years, some take even longer than that even. im of the opinion that the vast majority end up passing (as a person that organizes trans stuff IRL for 10+ years now), cis women are a very wide group.
if you ask around on tttt and most trans places, most people are early transition and very doomer. people eventually grow out of this as time goes on, and they leave these places. a goal of mine here is to try to buck this trend and have people from all stages that feel comfortable, so we can organize better aid for people in early transition.
ime, best thing to do is to try to find your "least bad" routine (for me i just wore skinny jeans and a tshirt) and stick to that and sort of hibernate until things get easier. i found things very hard early on and only felt safe dressing androgynously, whenever i dressed super feminine i felt like it accented my masculine parts too much and it made me super self conscious. over time, this concern went away as my body changed. this is just what i did, probably isnt the perfect thing to do for everyone, but for someone with ptsd and stress issues, it was great for me in hindsight.