So just 4 days ago we had huge thread about how great she is because she criticized US imperialism and immediately after that she's actively participating in the same imperialism. Also her position on Ukraine remains afaik unchanged, still supporting that fascist and ecocidal imperial puppet. How it is even possible to reconcile, is she two different people or what?
You guys are all blaming this on her being young but have you considered: she's Northern European.
Well, she is 21. That's just not a lot of time to shake out all your brainworms. And often people go down one path for a while before realizing it's connected to something else and it's a while before they start to see the shape of the maze. Took me til... 26? 27? To fully break free from my USian programming and that was more the start of a journey than the end of one.
Hopefully she'll do better than I will but she's too young to write off yet. If she keeps on this she'll figure out that climate change, Palestine, proxy wars, all of it leads back to DC, and behind DC is fascism. If we're lucky she'll even drag other people along while she does it.
I'll also say; Palestine is a much easier issue to understand the large scale dynamics of than weird parliamentary politics in other countries. Really grokking what's happening in Ukraine requires a great deal of historical background of the 20th century, plus digging all the way back through the post USSR history of Russia, Ukraine, Putin, Shock Doctrine, the OUN-B, all of it.
Hopefully she'll get better on these things.
I feel bad for her because of the pressure that is put on her at a young age.
Word. She's been right under the media's guns for a long time now.
for real. at 21 my takes were so hot they would have ignited the atmosphere and killed all life on the planet, if
- there had been twitter
- anyone gave a shit what I thought
I get these Facebook "memories" stuff from time to time, and it's really cringy
Same.
She's been walking down the line of getting rid of brainworms decades faster than I ever did. Most of us were libs once, I often still am if I'm not conscious about things.
Maybe I am giving her more grace as a fellow neurospicy, but she has consistently followed through when actually learning more. Give her time.
It's also not easy to not be lib about this stuff somewhere like Sweden, the position isn't only hegemonic, it's all there is. Even in "left" spaces.
She's supports Ukraine because she blames Russia for the invasion and the ecocide.
She needs to be educated on the Maidan Coup and the US / UK fostering Nazis and Banderites there. What they did to their own people - bombing, murdering, erasing them for resisting fascism.
My guess is that she is still surrounded by the same people that started her foray into the public eye. They are a bunch of euro socdems that are good on some issues but horrible on most, especially when it comes to countries that are enemies of the USA/West (Russia, China, DPRK, Iran etc...) Until I see her appear with someone like Prashad, I'm not gonna see her as some serious political figure.
This is the point when i start to seriously doubt her, because Ukraine comitted:
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Ecocide along the front lines, by mass usage of depleted uranium and cluster mines
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Another one by blowing up the Kakhovka dam
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Officially a huge one by blowing up Nordstream, and you cannot even blame this on war (ofc we all know USA did it, but she probably should believe official version? i don't remember if she ever commented on that)
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Potentially a nuclear ecocide when they bombed Zaporozhia plant several times. They planned to capture Kursk nuclear plant, and called for nuclear strikes on Russia.
So even without all the context of nazism and imperialism and taking on a flat value she should at least bothside the war from ecological point of view but she isn't, she's supporting the side which does way more ecological destruction. And added context don't work for Ukraine side also.
They will say they did all of those things in self defense as Russia invaded.
Especially blowing up Nordstream 5 months before Russian intervention, and we all know they love nuclear "self-defence" ecocides like in Japan or Bikini atoll or nearly in Zaporozhia but what does this have to do with reality?
-
There is a lot of environmental destruction brought with war and a very large chunk of Ukraine won't be usable for a long time.
Do not underestimate the westerners' ability to compartmentalise this stuff.
all of it leads back to DC
Washington D.C.? Das Capital?
She is trying to be good, but misses A LOT of stuff. Still good for her age, at least 99% of people would have turned into complete grifters if they were in her shoes.
Also, it is really hard to see evil from within, we all at least slightly empathize with our own region even if it isn't deserved.
Absolutely, at 21 I was an insufferable gamer lib, she’s in a much better spot
Damn, I was such a lib until like 25. Against the Iraq war and other CLEAR stupidity, but a lib on all the less directly obvious stuff.
There are a lot of people that think like this. I don't know why people are surprised. My friend dated a Georgian woman who is very left wing in the states and Palestine, but supports these protests, supports Ukraine. She just doesn't like Putin.
nobody likes Putin, we just know that the United States isn't in the business of solving our problems
The man is a cretinous piece of shit, but he's not a cartoonish supervillain looking to discover the lost city of Cobra-La to unleash the Snake People on the world of Man
Calling for World War III is unwarranted
...So what you're saying is that Cobra-La is entirely undefended and ripe for the taking? I'm off!
Like not liking Saddam, but knowing the invasion of Iraq would only make it worse?
I'm not very surprised, i still remembered that part about Ukraine, posting that as informational if someone forgot because of that thread.
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This is, essentially, a liberal position.
Amen. It is a very ignorant position, too. Considering the amount of "slava untini" sprayed at Gaza walls.
There are a lot of Ukrainians that support Palestine as well (probably for numerous reasons, solidarity and possibly antisemitism). People see each other being bombed and sympathize with each other.
Bombing Donetsk in 2016 this is just like the Palestinian resistance
left-wing Georgian here.
I don't understand how a "left-wing" person could support these protests. The people behind them are Zionists and people who want to coup the government to estabilish a far-right U.S. puppet, as they did in 2004. And they'd gladly start another war, just like in 2008, except we won't survive this time.
The only kind of "leftist" that would support these kinds of protests is the kind of "leftist" that is really into Scandinavian "socialism" and thinks the EU is somehow "progressive".
There are a lot of people like that in the US. “Left-wing” in America but conservative to far-right in their home countries. Reminds me of an English woman living in the US who was a big Bernie supporter and favorable towards the Greens, but hated Jeremy Corbyn and supported the LibDems in the UK.
this is why Chinese political memes are so much better than western ones.
Yet I'm too dumb to understand them. How do you read this?
Edit: took me long enough but I understood. "Supports" is not about the countries but people supporting countries
They successfully created a good political compass. Someone has to stop them
The core of international geopolitics is that LGBTQ+ people have to suffer apparently (no, not talking about palestine)
This seems very on brand for her tbh, did people really think she went full Marxist Leninst because she mentioned imperialism a few times?
Maybe not full ML but at least solidly antiimperialist, yes.
Nah. Lots of liberals like using words like imperialism and will call Russia imperialist. There's a liberal anti-warism that's for Ukraine, for Palestine but also regularly duped into supporting color revolutions like Hong Kong and calling Chinese efforts to prevent color revolutions "imperialism" because they live in this moment to moment vacuum devoid of historical context or understanding of material and historical forces.
there is a commonly used liberal definition of imperialism which is "when big country invades (or meddles in, or even just makes deals with) smaller country"
"Alright Greta, you've built up enough of a legitimate image with the Palestine stuff, time to get back to work"
I have zero emotional attachment to her, but I also recognize that not an insignificant number of people look to her, especially the budding political activists of her generation, as a kind of benchmark for the rare genuine politically-aware activist that sometimes gets the limelight. She is influential in that respect. It's similarly why so many chuds and now libs hate her. I want her to get it right because I want those who look to her to get it right too. But if people in this thread really are getting too attached, then I agree that's not a good thing.
Accelerationist Greta wants to quicken the downfall of the US empire smh
As I said in that thread (third most controversial comment smfh), her statement has wiggle room for lesser evilism. She pretty much said that Trump is worse than Harris and that this election is the most important election of our time. What is that but lesser evilism?
popular perception of stalin and the USSR?
also hows the food
Is it a good place to visit? What would be the most interesting things to do?
eat the food, see the cultural places or just places in general (especially the country side), go skiing or hiking in the vast beautiful mountains, drink homemade wine from a random man in a village, visit Gori and the Stalin museum and meet some ardent Stalin fans, plus all the normal tourist things
Eh... she's protesting the more right wing part of the government winning an election. Seems fine to me.
Russia is useful for destabilizing the Western dominated world order, but is definitely not a "friend" of the left.
Edit: (gonna leave my comment here, because I earned this)
Woof, fucked a hornets nest on this one didn't I?
My intent, ultimately wrongheaded as I may be, was to wonder why we care about Greta Thunberg taking a side in this. I wasn't aware she was more than a minor celebrity based on climate change stuff and has enough... I don't know... influence to draw more outside support for this attempt at a color revolution. This feels likes something for The Dunk Tank and not News.
Sure, she made some negative statements about US imperialism, but that's pretty low hanging fruit. Its the easiest thing in the world to do when there's a flag to identify who is doing what. But can completely understand why it might be much harder to see what's likely going on when the flags are the Georgian flag and the Russian flag, especially when you're in your early 20's.
...
We could send her a book on Color Revolutions. Didn't Zinn write a good one?
Only problem is, the lack of references make it hard to recommend to Libs.
Jakarta Method is great and I've got JM and WB next to each other on my bookshelf. Haven't read If We Burn yet, but Pipeline was decent.
Oh, yeah, but he doesn't list any sources. Says he's got some personal contacts and the rest is freely available or something. For anyone even slightly familiar with what he's talking about, it's unnecessary. But for some lib with their head still up their butt, it's a no go.
Just occured to me that I had attributed Andreas Malm's Pipeline book to Vincent Bevins. Embarrassing!
Lmao I didn't even notice at the time, my brain autocorrected to Jakarta Method.
I vaguely remember the two book clubs may have been happening around the same time or smth like that
Sure, but so what. So are lots of other people. Sucks that this was sparked and encouraged by Western NGO's, though.
We aren't stanning many of colour revolution participants here, if you didn't noticed.
Think about exactly what you're saying again? The west is literally trying to Ukrainize Georgia. Participating in a foreign country's electoral processes (foreign interference) to agitate for the country to effectively destroy itself for the US MIC/to maintain western hegemony is an utterly shit move no matter how one looks at it..
Alright, okay, but there's a part of me that wonders why we're focusing on Greta Thunberg. This is in News and not The Dunk Tank.
So, do we think that she's intentionally laundering for the MIC to turn Georiga into another active battleground against Russia or is she just another one of the millions of people who get swept up in these types of things and we only care because she's a celebrity?
If you want my opinion? In this context I'd bet it's the former. This is her gig, her livelihood, she has some (probably) genuine opinions but I doubt this is it, and there are a billion other ways she could have parroted her opinion rather than flying over to Georgia for direct meddling.
there is more and more of these pseudo leftist comment giving green lights to all sort of shit because , because "well , I will allow it"
Eh... she's protesting the more right wing part of the government winning an election.
---> A Swedish citizen of the EU is protesting the Democratic Will of the Georgian people , that elected a Anti EU goverment. She is a Swedish Citizen currently fighting literally the "Democratic Will of the georgian People" . You are Also (i strongly assume) not a georgian citizen , so you saying
Seems fine to me.
--->this Is literaly the same thing that Greta is doing !
--> What Job do you have to be able to greenlight "Swedish People" trying to overturn the Democratic Election of Georgia ?
The more rightwing government is against the further encroachment of the EU and NATO.
The opposition wants to cut all ties with Russia (biggest trading partner), China and become a US lapdog. Seems like "left" is doing a lot of lifting there.
sheer balls to parachute in from rich euro country and to participate in protests over elections in poor country to be gobbled up by capital is wild.
At least orwell observed some fascists eliminations.
(Not that the party that has won has some redeeming qualities, tbh, just local capital vs comprador capital)
Bro we all know Russia sucks, but the current alternative for those countries sucks A LOT more.
Look at what became of Ukraine after Euromaidan.
Where exactly is Russia not a "friend" of the left (outside of its domestic policies and social reactionaryism)?
In resisting the western dominated world order, by necessity Russia is one of the more actively anti-imperialist states out there, for starters.
Their championing the cause of de-dollarization (again, by necessity) and assisting in uplifting/working together with the global south to develop their material conditions (developing the nuclear power plant in Burkina Faso for instance) are also absolutely amazing.
There's no excuse for their domestic reactionaryism, but in almost every aspect otherwise and outside their borders they are a friend- a circumstantial friend, perhaps, and one to be approached with some skepticism- but a friend all th same IMO.
Russia is not a friend of the left, but our interests are often aligned. We still need to be wary nevertheless.
There are no friends in geopolitics, only mutual interests
