And no, I don't mean, the supposed "Playful Bullying" (that will upset me too, same with being teased), or being even lightly prodded.
The other day, I was questioned on whether I "actually am a leftist", by a friend. After I nervously answered fairly basic questions such as believing in healthcare and collective labor, they weren't convinced. Ever since that day, I felt like I couldn't be a leftist, especially since I lost any confidence in my ability to be "better" according to that person's standards. If I couldn't satisfy their standards that one time, what would be the point of trying to read theory and trying again? Yes I admit, I haven't tried to read theory. I have no confidence that I would do it correctly.
So, I was already completely lacking in confidence in actually being a good enough leftist. But after that incident where I was bullied and picked on, even for a few minutes... Something in me gave up trying to keep up with the people on this website. It also made me fear and lose confidence in trying, for fear that I would encounter other "Secret Tests of Character" like that.
I feel as though in terms of personality, I am too quiet, too shy, and I have too little to say or contribute anyways, to feel at home here. It feels as though speaking the loudest and having lots to say is what matters the most here, and that is something I cannot do.
So, given that everyone insists "read theory", which I haven't been able to, does this mean I am not at the standards I seem to see here?
This is the least serious leftist space. You will be just fine here. If you make a bad take, you may get called out on it. But the correct response is to just investigate what they are saying and adjust your views accordingly. That's all it takes to be a "good" leftist; the only "bad" leftist is someone who refuses to do that navel-gazing, refuses to critically examine their own views.
Thank you, user with a pig shitting on its balls as their profile picture, very cool!
No one reads theory, they just tell people to read theory. One day someone will actually read theory and tell us what the hell we're all doing here.
Everybody thinks they're the vanguard, nobody thinks they're the proletariat. We need a whole hell of a lot more of one than the other.
The vanguard is the proletariat. They're not separate from the masses, but rather the most politically advanced and organized section of it
The first among equals as it were. Let's put it this way, artists and ditch diggers are equally important in a socialist society but for some reason everyone wants to be artists.
The first among equals as it were.
Wow its literally like Animal Farm 1984
artists and ditch diggers are equally important in a socialist society but for some reason everyone wants to be artists.
Literal anticommunist talking point, to wit:
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What are you talking about, man? You seem to be thinking that a vanguard party is a bunch of pointy head intellectuals pushing up their glasses. It's just the people who are politically aware and actively engaging in organized class struggle. Do you think a ditch digger cannot join or would not be welcomed into a vanguard party?
Read some Mao and free your mind from anticommunist State Department talking points
The whole class has been ignoring the homework? It was all in the syllabus, and I kept reminding you to do the reading!
You all know the final isn't being graded on a curve, right? It's covering all of the material from the whole year.
As an admin you're expected to be part of the vanguard party that cleanses us of our false consciousness.
Aw man, professor sounds mad, if we cant pass this class we'll be turning linen into coats our whole lives... We need a study montage set to The Distance by Cake! stat!
Lemmygrad is the good class where everyone does the homework.
Hexbear is where the slacker class clowns get placed.
Lemmygrad is the Mike Wazowski and Hexbear is the James P. Sullivan, got it.
It's an excellent cooling material; even other organics can't compare
The value of linen is equal to the amount of labor involved in the production and transportation of it. No more, no less.
Socially necessary labor value plus the natural value of the linen, as nature is a source of value as well as labor.
The true value of linen was the coats we made along the way.
So... They weren't actually being serious? And were just repeating a phrase all this time!? Another incident of me being Literal Minded...
He's joking. People definitely read theory. But can I let you in on a little secret? I only read like, the first 40 pages of Capital vol 1, said "oh wow that's just impossible for me to read right now" and watched a bunch of videos from The Marxist Project so I could grasp the most important concepts. I've focused on reading about history instead, because it's a lot more palatable for me, and I think in most conversations with other people it's most helpful to know a lot about history and a little about the economic laws that govern history, than to be an expert on those laws but not know enough details about history to make convincing arguments to people. Of course, once I feel more comfortable I'll give the big book another crack!
I recommend that if you hate capitalism and feel like all this crap is made up BS, you should do something similar to break into leftism. Read something easier and more modern; anything Parenti, Chomsky, Vincent Bevins, etc. then you can complement your understanding of history with a bit of understanding of Marxist theory, you can read a bit of Mao or Stalin, who actually made some very nice essays explaining dialectical materialism and its application. You can look up lectures on Marx, I recommend David Harvey, Michael Hudson, and Richard Wolff. Just take it at your own pace, it's not like there's an exam to pass.
I've read all three volumes of Capital, and I can confidently say reading it is something you should do eventually, but it would be counter productive to read it without already having a fairly good understanding of most of it's core concepts and having built up a tolerance for dry, difficult reading. Starting with it is the theory equivalent of trying to read Ulysses as your first novel or playing battletoads as your first videogame.
Also, I've talked to people who haven't read it in its entirety but definetly understand it better than I do.
There is a new translation of it into English that just came out that's supposed to be a lot easier to understand but I personally haven't checked it out yet.
Paul Reitter's recent translation is really good! I think it's a much more approachable translation for modern readers, and it's the only translation in English that's based on that last (4th) German edition of the book.
Having said that, my personal copy of Capital is from 1906 with some beautifully penciled marginalia from the comrade who originally owned it, and I can't bring myself to replace it or justify buying yet another copy just to loan out or reference corrections that were already penciled in to my copy in the margins.
I recently picked up the 1986 book Prisoners of the American Dream by Mike Davis because someone posted the first page on twitter. Haven't read that much of it but based on what I have read it seems like a very approachable book for leftists looking to get into the reading.
Also on Hexbear's literature comm there's a post (https://hexbear.net/post/109424) directing one on how to access the 'Socialist Theory Reading Group' on the education site Perusall. The weekly reading group portion of that has fallen into disuse but the library has a bunch of archived PDFs that are all readily accessible and can be easily downloaded. For instance there's three titles I can see from Parenti, two from Chomsky, and The Jarkarta Method by Vincent Bevins.
The Perusall might not be the most user-friendly thing out there for a newbie looking for a beginner's reading list, but I just wanted to mention it.
A lot of people here have read theory, but also a lot of have not. Both categories will tell you to read theory. The point is more telling people to not argue out of their ass and be knowledgeable.
I'm being a little flip honestly. Ive read 50% of capital (about 500 pages) and haven't picked it up in months. This shit was written in the late 1800s, it's not easy to do. I don't fault anyone who hasn't read it. There are a lot beginners lists out there to get you stated. But that said, anyone who seriously talks down to you for not having read theory is not a good comrade and could benefit from some self critique.
It's a gag, a lot here do, but also a lot dont or haven't but mean to. There's like...a LOT of books and different viewpoints and stuff it's a pretty robust subject and so even amongst the avid readers no one has read everything.
Being gatekept on being a leftist is extremely leftist, the more times you've been purity tested the more leftist you are. Doesn't matter if you actually pass those purity tests, mind you, but it means you've stuck around long enough to not have given up and succumb to becoming a lib or fash.
As for theory, you can start with listening to Dolly Parton's seminal "9 to 5" as a primer on communism
Also there isn't like an exam for leftism. Being an educated leftist is always better but if you say you're a comrade, you are to me until proven otherwise and that's done through actions
No, you won't be bullied as long as you act in good faith. It's a good sign that you want to grow and learn and are willing to ask questions.
In my book, you're a leftist if you want the end of capitalism. The rest of theory is just for learning the how and the why.
For something that's easier to read, I'd suggest Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti.
Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti.
Cannot recommend a book more. Dead simple. Huge impact. Best bang for buck read imo, especially if you still have lingering apprehension about AES states.
A work like Capital may be a little much to start with and the style is a little old fashioned, but I think you're underestimating yourself. Reading any sort of non-fiction just means taking it at the pace you are comfortable with. Sometimes you have to look up a word or a phrase, sometimes you have to sleep on something and come back to it with fresh eyes -- that's fine! Understanding isn't something you get immediately -- it comes over time. If you're still intimidated, maybe try starting with something outside of direct theory. Pick a topic that you're interested in, and find a book on it. Reading is like any habit, it gets better with practice!
What if the topic is Folktales from Russia and other places? Shouldn't their short length per tale not be good for practicing reading?
If you're worried about the length, maybe find a companion to it? Like perhaps, a history of their collection and publication?
I think reading small stuff is just fine for getting practice! It will get you more comfortable with reading and build up your stamina for it just the same.
Here here! Our capitalist world works to stunt our intellectual capacity and attention spans in order to ensure we remain perfect cogs in the machine. Just the act of trying to read something more terse than marvelbrained witty oneliners in tik tok comment sections is already an excellent start to enriching your mind!
Our capitalist world works to stunt our intellectual capacity and attention spans in order to ensure we remain perfect cogs in the machine. Just the act of trying to read something more terse than marvelbrained witty oneliners in tik tok comment sections is already an excellent start to enriching your mind!
This should be a tagline
Edit: not in a bad way, but just so that everyone on the site could see it.
Maybe we could help more if the subjects are narrowed down a bit. What were the questions you were asked? There is for sure someone who's written a good answer and further reading can be worked out from there.
'having lots to say is what matters the most here, and that is something I cannot do.'
- something you cannot do... YET.
my first year or two of leftism was hanging out in online forums and reading 'easy' theory by Chomsky and other similar palatable modern theorists, who aren't exactly Marxist with a capital M, but have valid critiques of capitalism. Naomi Klein, David Graeber, even Michael Moore.
I'd recommend 'How The World Works' by Chomsky. The title makes it clear what it's about. It's my go to recommendation to anyone who's curious. The whole book is taken directly from his radio appearances and the like, so it's totally conversational and written for maximum digestibility. Each chapter is very short, sometimes even just a page or two iirc. He gets into the big debates, without throwing jargon around.
For me, it was illuminating, and made me pretty angry with the world and the lies I'd been told. This drove me to go further and further. I found what interests me most: imperialism. I've spent about 3 years reading about it, and will probably read about it until the day I die. I can't get enough of it. I've even written plays about it. I could talk about it for days on end. And yet three years ago, I probably couldn't have even put Congo or Venezuela on a map.
All this is to say that it'll all come to you. And that I think a knowledge of imperialism is the key to unlocking Marxism.
for an American he's actually quite smart if you ignore the last 10 years of his career
Just learn a handful of quotes and drop them here and there in discussions, no one will notice that you haven't read theory
20 yards of linen (don't laugh) fuck kautsky
Did I do it right?
That can't be right, because I'm the only leftist on this site.
what do you mean by you haven’t been able to read theory? like is something making it difficult for you or are you not sure where to start, or is it something else? someone here might be able to help you out
It is mostly due to depression and having very little confidence in what people often call "Critical Thinking Skills" And I know that, when I read something, I am literal minded due to autism, so I often make incorrect conclusions, unless I am told outright what the intended message was.
Fuck those people for making you feel that way. I felt a similar way when presented with "theory" as a whole. Some (most) of it needs to be read multiple times and possibly with a companion guide of some sort to understand imo. Anybody who pretends to understand complex archaic language without historical context without re-reading lines multiple times is either a genius or fooling themselves.
Me reading the first chunk of State and Revolution, not knowing who any of the people Lenin was criticizing are:
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Fr. Capital and Lenin's works are probably two of the harder reads both for different reasons. Capital is long, weirdly worded, and boring enough that you worry you're gonna miss the insights that make it worth reading. Lenin is the opposite. Very interesting, much easier to understand language, but so fast paced that my brain periodically needed to stop and go back to reread some stuff I missed. Didn't help that I knew very little about Soviet history then.
Don't let anyone make you feel bad for struggling. It's not an easy read, requires some discipline, and most people just educate themselves on shitposts anyway. Especially don't let that discourage you from reading. It really is beneficial imo, you won't regret doing it.
A lot of leftist theory is academic is tone. Quite suitable for a reader that prefers literal and technical writing
The only exceptions are later western theorists like Althussier or Adorno. The main people doing shit (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fanon) are all easy reads.
Actually Mao is probably the most approachable since he wrote for the newly literate.
Im finding Fanon incredibly difficult. The fancy 3-dollar vocab isn't an issue for me (though it will be for many who don't have an academic background), but, at least in Wretched of the Earth, he just kinda started chapter one by rambling along and I still have no idea what his point is yet. I can't seem to tie them back in to any sort of thesis, and my eyes soon glaze over
Fanon is rambling, it's true. He will get to the point but the rambling is an attempt at establishing intrinsic knowledge for the later sections.
But compared to Hegel or Lacan he might as well be speaking in single syllables
I'd suggest Mao then. He's often almost insulting in his literalness.
check out channels like this one if you want to get some info in a more personal way : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPZoYsfoSekIpLcz9plX1Q don't be worried about being literal minded or having incorrect conclusions, just study (reading, podcasts, audio books, whatever you prefer) to gather knowledge and find people to talk to about it and things will become more clear over time.
The early Red Menace episodes from RevLeft Radio that are meant to be companion pieces to some of the shorter foundational pieces of theory helped me out a lot when I was just starting to read theory:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9VMwPK_SqUuE-DQkFtceSbIjE5dzN6QA
I would do the reading and then listen to the episode and it really gave me confidence that I was actually understanding what I was reading.
Oh, I definitely understand depression making it difficult. I used to have a lot of trouble keeping motivated for reading even for things I really enjoyed. What changed it for me was when I started having a long bus ride to and from work, which was an ideal time for me to read and kept me consistent. Maybe audiobooks would help?
As for drawing incorrect conclusions, I think as you learn more about history and political theory, it becomes easier to have confidence in your own understanding. There's no shame in needing help either! I saw some people already suggest companion pieces, which can make the more difficult theory easier to understand. There's also communities here and on Lemmygrad (like !asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml or !genzhou@lemmygrad.ml) where you can ask questions about things that confuse you, people are often happy to answer questions for those looking to learn. Something I think that could help too is reading a book written more recently as well, since they tend to use language that is easier for us to understand. A lot of the foundational Marxist works are very old, and personally I'm not sure about any good modern substitutes for them, but I'm sure there's stuff out there. Maybe someone else can chime in with suggestions.
Sorry if this response is overwhelming, I have a hard time judging that kind of thing and this is just something I get a little overzealous about.
Excellent points; Lemmygrad and Hexbear are sister instances, and both have great resources for learning that don't always overlap, so you'll frequently see both commenters and posters from both instances on each.
i'm in the same boat. some advice my friend gave me is to read the sparknotes, wikipedia, or some kind of other summary first (for each chapter individually as you read or for the entire work) before reading the real thing so i know where they're going.
my process now is to read a summary of chapter one, then read chapter one, read a summary of chapter two...so on and so forth. if it's an academic article with no summary i alternatively try to read the abstract and conclusion (and the discussion section if available) first before going to the main body.
it's honestly been very helpful at least for me cause it makes things less confusing so i hope it can help you too. i have a lot of trouble with interpreting things completely wrong as well and it suuucks.
As a teacher of literature there is nothing wrong with reading a summary first. I encourage students to do it because when you're reading what's important isn't merely what is said but how it is said and the context it exists in. So knowing what's coming (yards of linen, coats, or the French revolution) is important, but understanding how it's presented.
I think is what you get from reading the material i.e. "The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living" and understanding that this is why revolutions often clothe themselves in the trappings of the past because we cannot escape history (or, as Marx puts it one sentence before, "Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past."). Reading a summary to understand the broad strokes allows you to recognize the meaning in the text as you encounter it, rather than middle through.
Most importantly, you can use the summary as a point of productive dialectical disagreement. If you accidentally read the CIA summary of Marx that's not a problem, you can use the disagreement between your reading and the summary (as long as your reading is grounded - this is where conversation with comrades and such can help) to actually understand the text. Summaries, after all, are focused on one set of priorities and assumptions, and if you disagree that's not a problem - you're just noticing something different in the text.
So use summaries, but never feel chained by them.
@mathemachristian@hexbear.net already linked my basic beginner guide in this thread so I won't spam it. Instead, I'll leave you with advice for if you never read theory, as much as I think you should.
Don't speak on what you haven't thoroughly investigated. If that is, say, whether or not revolution is required, don't immediately say yes or no, or even say that you think revolution is required but aren't sure. This sounds mean, but I promise, this right here will eliminate the vast majority of any real bullying you could come across. You can learn the answers to those questions by reading theory
but also by listening to others.Secondly, browse effort-posts and the News Mega. Just see what people are saying, and try to look up online what you aren't familiar with.
Third, just have fun in the general megathread and hobby comms like c/games! Those are just comfy and cozy.
Yes I admit, I haven't tried to read theory. I have no confidence that I would do it correctly.
two points. first, the only incorrect way to read theory is to not read it. even if you don't understand 100% of a book -- hell, even if you only understand 25% of a book the first time you read it -- you can still get a lot out of it and become a better, more informed leftist. second, theory is only one side of the coin. what makes a good leftist is a combination of theory and praxis that inform each other, so if you're still really that worried about not being able to read theory, getting out and actually contributing to a leftist cause will both help you feel like you're a Good Leftist and make reading theory more approachable, bc praxis informs theory and vice versa
Death to America
I want to second what propter_hog said, being a leftist is a process. There is always more to learn about the world and the forces that drive it. Keep learning, and develop some healthy skepticism and media literacy with regard to capitalist depictions of socialist countries, and you're on track.
We're all liberals here, so no worries
The important thing is to engage in a continual process of learning and self-education, so that you can engage in correct practice. Liberals don't have to do this because a. we're constantly bathed in propaganda that disseminates their worldview and b. they don't want to change the world in any meaningful way. You can pick up a lot by just hanging out with other leftists here and listening and chatting, but eventually you will want to read theory to better understand why they think the the things they do. Better yet, join an org irl, engage in political education through them and put it into practice.
At the end of the day, leftism isn't something you are, it's something you do.
You're here to learn, you won't get bullied. Generally when someone gets dumped on massively it's cause they came in combative and arrogant and remained so in the face of people replying with paragraphs of well written and educational rebuttals with links, if the other person proceeds to double down it's open season. This us a very comfy place to be otherwise. You're approaching with probably more humility than we'd expect let alone see often, so you're fine.
Welcome! We have a LOT of emojis and an account everyone can use if they want to pretend they're a dog!
Ooh! We also have a community account for pretending to be a cat! Thus proving we're a left-unity space.
free gifts are free so they're worth nothing
