- cross-posted to:
- chat
You must log in or register to comment.
Jimmy cares so much about M4A that he spent the entire primary backing someone other than the only viable Democratic candidate who could implement it. Pressure needs to be kept on our politicians, including "The Squad", but I see this just as much of Dore trying to keep relevant by creating controversy as creating pressure.
M4A isn't coming regardless of whether or not there is a vote for it on the House floor.
EDIT: the American left is absolutely doomed if you losers are offended at the notion that the woke bourgeois political party isn't going to give you M4A if it's given the opportunity to do so lmao
The Squad could go on a hunger store for M4A and literally die and we still won't get healthcare.
oops meant hunger strike
The hunger store exists in communist totalitarian dictatorships where it’s citizens are offered rations tickets for it, while those in the government eat everything in front of starving kids.
Perfect description of both. I can't stand Jimmy for long, but his passion is real and he draws a large audience. Kyle has some liberal limitations, but he strikes the perfect balance of arguing for major leftist projects using liberal language.
I don’t think he’s as helpful with his agitprop as I think he is
That's not a fair characterization - and is kind of a lib attack, as it's deflecting/defending AOC/Pelosi from a leftist critique.
Jimmy Dore has more radical and populist politics, so he wanted someone with more oomph than Bernie. Many Chapos routinely take the same position, "Bernie's a cuck, he sold out, look how the DNC screwed him even though he gave them everything, etc."
At the time, Tulsi looked like Bernie with more punch, Bernie with a couple shots of kahlua, if you will. She actually looked like Bernie's attack dog - he says "my good friend Joe", Tulsi says "Kamala is a crooked cop hiding evidence to keep innocents in prison". She had resigned from the DNC in protest in 2016 and was one of the most prominent voices saying the primary was rigged against Bernie.
Tulsi was better than Bernie in one regard - the willingness to criticize the US foreign policy. It's by far the most radical anti-war position expressed by a Democratic Presidential candidate (or a prominent Democrat period) in recent years. (Her overall foreign policy is questionable - but it's still better and more radical than that of Sanders.)
Foreign policy matters more to Dore than domestic does - so it's not a fair attack to say he didn't care about M4A just because it wasn't his utmost priority.
Stanning for Tulsi was a strategy of pushing Bernie and the Dems as a whole even further left - not actually about supporting Tulsi. (You'd be right to point out that Tulsi has more conservative social views, but that's not what Jimmy Dore EVER emphasized when extolling her. That's like the attacks on Sanders for opposing a few gun control measures - technically in this one place it makes him more "conservative", but that's not what his movement was ever about. Same with Tulsi stans - at least the leftist ones. )
In addition, Tulsi Gabbard cosponsored the Medicare For All Act in 2017 and in 2019. (I haven't looked at the specific bills, but I'm pretty sure both were endorsed by Sanders.) She's still a member of the Medicare For All Caucus. She did switch to a watered-down version of M4A during the primary, along with every other candidate except Sanders. But she never attacked Sanders or his plan.
In addition, Tulsi Gabbard cosponsored the Medicare For All Act in 2017 and in 2019. (I haven’t looked at the specific bills, but I’m pretty sure both were endorsed by Sanders.) She’s still a member of the Medicare For All Caucus. She did switch to a watered-down version of M4A during the primary, along with every other candidate except Sanders. But she never attacked Sanders or his plan.
And that's why a vote on M4A does not matter. All the cosponsors can vote yes, because it won't pass the House. In a few years they'll flip their positions if Dems actually have the votes to pass it.
It does matter. I don't care if they're all faking it - the more of them do it the more popular it looks and the more pressure there is on those who didn't cosponsor to do so next time.
Yes, the Dems routinely pretend to want popular shit specifically because they can't actually pass it. But that isn't nothing. It puts them on the record. It sets up leftist talking points against them if they ever reverse their position. It's a long battle - but every tiny step is progress.
What's the alternative? "Yes, Madam Speaker, we don't want to alienate Representative Baxter Oilwellington of Louisiana, a $15 minimum wage by 2050 is a fair compromise" ?
What’s the alternative? “Yes, Madam Speaker, we don’t want to alienate Representative Baxter Oilwellington of Louisiana, a $15 minimum wage by 2050 is a fair compromise” ?
Give the climate change committee the power to advance legislation and issue subpoenas. At the moment it can't do that. Get rid of PAYGO rules that limit govt spending. Give the good committee positions to Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush, give fuck all to the new moderates. Get Peolosi to wear clown makeup a few times idk.
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1337955687666749441
If there are bad concessions then AOC should absolutely not vote for Pelosi as speaker. But I don't think the vote is happening until next month so we don't know what's happening quite yet. My only point is that an M4A isn't that exciting of a concession
That's fair. But I don't think AOC demanding M4A more stringently is an obstacle to the other goals AND I don't think leftists yelling at AOC makes life more difficult for her - it helps her because she can say she's under pressure to demand even more.
That's true, the anger at AOC is probably good for AOC's negotiations. Because she would be absolutely flamed for voting for Pelosi for nothing
There was literally never any material reality in which Tulsi Gabbard was going to even come close to winning the nomination. She operated as another spoiler against Sanders, like Elizabeth Warren, and anyone who thinks that supporting her was "pushing Bernie left" is a pudding head. It's absolutely a fair characterization. The only viable choice if your opinion was "Bernie's a cuck" was to not participate in the Democratic primary at all. Tulsi fucking endorsed Biden over Bernie, she isn't anti-imperialist either.
anyone who thinks that supporting her way “pushing Bernie left” is a pudding head
Oh snap. Right back at you - I think anyone who thinks otherwise is a... marshmallow face. :surprised-pika:
There was literally never any material reality in which Tulsi Gabbard was going to even come close to winning the nomination.
Exactly. She ran to promote herself - but also was someone who'd bring radical talking points to a national platform.
She operated as another spoiler against Sanders, like Elizabeth Warren
Wrong. Warren actually competed and took votes away from Bernie. Tulsi got <1% of the votes and IMO competed for a different demographic than Bernie. If she ever showed Warren numbers, I'd agree she was acting as a spoiler and should have dropped out. But she didn't.
The only viable choice if your opinion was “Bernie’s a cuck” was to not participate in the Democratic primary at all.
That's not my opinion, it's just a common opinion here - I trust Bernie to be doing his best, but I don't thinking wanting to push him further is a bad idea.
Tulsi fucking endorsed Biden over Bernie
Yeah, that sucked. But it was after it was all over and Bernie was about to do the same. At the time there was a story that she offered to endorse Bernie and he rejected her - though I haven't managed to track down any details.
she isn’t anti-imperialist either.
Yeah, but more anti-imperialist than Bernie. Or, at least, I think it's reasonable to hold that opinion - leftists shouldn't castigate other leftists for having done so at the time.
If you are endorsing Joe Biden, you aren't anti-imperialist.
Wrong. Warren actually competed and took votes away from Bernie. Tulsi got <1% of the votes and IMO competed for a different demographic than Bernie. If she ever showed Warren numbers, I'd agree she was acting as a spoiler and should have dropped out. But she didn't.
No, I'm right. Bernie to Trump voters are an actual phenomenon, and that's who she was targeting. That she was bad at it doesn't mean she wasn't operating as a spoiler.
EDIT: Chapo Chat engaging in big "Joe Biden is anti-imperialist" energy.
Bernie to Trump voters are an actual phenomenon, and that’s who she was targeting.
Less of a phenomenon than Clinton to McCain voters - and was probably even less of a phenomenon in 2020 than in 2016, because Bernie was building a much less White coalition.
That she was bad at it doesn’t mean she wasn’t operating as a spoiler.
You have to actually spoil to be a spoiler. There're benefits to having more left politicians running - DeBlasio basically just endorsed Sanders' positions, for example. And even Warren helped Sanders in some debates. At some points the benefits are outweighed by the costs (e.g. Warren), but it wasn't the case for Tulsi.
Good, we agree. Sanders and AOC should be tried in revolutionary court for their crimes.
That goes without saying... but then what are you doing criticizing Jimmy for pushing succdem AOC further left?
At the time, Tulsi looked like Bernie with more punch
Lol no she didn't. Every person with a brain knew what she was about during the primary. My man simped for her cause she appeared on his show and Bernie didn't. That's literally it. He's a fucking moron. The dude said that the chance Trump would get a SC judge appointed was the same as the moon falling into lake Michigan -- like you literally have to have brain damage to think that, especially as a political commentator. That anyone still takes him seriously, especially people on the left, is just fucking sad.
At the time, Tulsi looked like Bernie with more punch, Bernie with a couple shots of kahlua, if you will.
Nah. Listen I actually like Dore unlike most Chapos but he didn't support Tulsi because he thought she was a stronger version of Bernie. When people say he supported Tulsi out of spite for Bernie they're right, even if they're wrong on why he was so spiteful (it has nothing to do with not coming on his youtube channel). He was spiteful because he was really upset when Bernie endorsed Hillary. Kyle Kulinski talks about how Dore was personally very upset when that happened and couldn't forgive Bernie for it. I wasn't really upset at all because I knew Bernie would do that (he's capitulated to Democrats ever since he entered Congress) but it's honestly understandable for someone who really bought the Saint Bernard meme as Dore did.
I do find it funny Chapos really seem to have a hate hard on for Dore, even though most of the "lefties" who fling shit at him primarily hate him for refusing to "vote blue no matter who" which most Chapos refuse to do as well.
I appreciate the explanation! Didn't know the Hillary bit mattered to him that much. And, yeah, the I associate Dore hate with libness, which is maybe unfair, but the people attacking him don't seem to know much about him.
It's no problem. I honestly empathize a lot with why Dore did it, he was really hurt by someone he really looked up to. Still think Tulsi is total trash though.
I think the Dore hate has to do with the fact a lot of Chapos are huge Sam Seder and Michael Brooks fans (They only made like 1000 videos slamming him after all). The same impressions people give of Dore here seem straight up lifted from Sam Seder videos. I've noticed that the most vocal anti Doreists on social media tend to either be Sam Seder employees or "friends of the show". That and the fact a decent amount of his audience are right wingers so there's silly tribalistic reasons at play. (The whole "NO, HOW DARE YOU TALK TO THE OTHER SIDE!!!!" which is endemic on Chapo.)
If Tulsi was doing what AOC did, he would be in the same position as the people he's calling out.
Doore threw Tulsi under the bus when she endorsed Biden, try to keep up.
I don't trust anyone who laughs as hard at their own jokes as Jimmy does. Extremely weird joker boomer vibes from him. Plus half his audience is just chuds which is very funny to me.
So coconut surf mommy was bad because she's a weirdo who supports hindu fascism?
Hold only, let me see if I can find the video of Tulsi' speech at the "Howdy Modi" rally here in Houston.
Him and House became full on Tulsi fanatics in 2020, to the point of being fully unhinged.
Yeah too many people are focused on Dore over this shit and not enough on AOC and her defenders being gigantic fucking worms.
Dixon is a Democrat. His worked for the party at a local level.
He was all leftist communist sounding when Sanders had a chance and became a straight up lib the minute biden was the guy.
He sucks
That’s exactly who I was thinking of as well, That dude flipped a switch it feels like
AOC's capture is strumming along swimmingly. Libs are warming up to her with the idpol "they hated her because she's a woman" card. Now we have the same old reformist bullshit we've seen across continents. I'm sure some on the left are still on the "power levels" cope.
The thing about being a prominent leftist is that it's always going to be rough as fuck, possibly to the point where you have to put your life on the line. AOC herself said how difficult it was dealing with a congress that was clearly hostile to her, when she first came in. I can't imagine what type of mental toll it took on her, and considering the amount of vitriol she receives from the right, she probably felt she had to make some inroads with the likes of Pelosi. Of course, once you've taken a dosage of such strong liberalism, you're always in danger of succumbing completely.
To me, AOC is just another in a long line of jokes about the system. It just shows how much of a dog and pony show electoralism is. At some point all these people who support AOC need to recognize that and just stop pressing her because it's useless. She will just fall into the same ideology as the rest. The people on the other hand need to work towards something more tangible.
I mean we have a non-zero chance that this congress could fail to pass a relief bill before the next admin comes in, and the most prominent and visible "left leaning" figures go on social media and television and defend the very same people that are so morally bankrupt that they don't see the urgency in pushing along aid for tens of millions of people that will be out of work, out of benefits, and out of a roof come the last week of December. What could make anyone think that this is how the left will win?
Electoralism isn't useless, you have to observe Kshama Sawant to understand the ways in which electoralism in the US context can be immensely valuable though, as the squad is clearly not enough.
I do still believe that the squad is necessary as you do need some number of liberal socialists operating within the democratic party to get things done, but you also need democratic centralist third parties that are accountable to the most radical elements to push that democratic liberal socialist faction into holding a farther left political line even if their policy line is already good.
AOC in a few years:
My biggest regret? Hmm, I would say endorsing Bernie in 2020. There's a brewing civil war, and the biggest culprit is the divisiveness in politics. The best antidote is for all Americans to be on the same page, and all I did was contribute to the divide. Definitely Bernie.
and all the "left" journalists are out to call out Dore instead of the idea.
What Dore is suggesting is also incrementalist, but more performative than pragmatic. An M4A vote that's doomed to fail with achieve nothing, and might even make things worse, since Dems who would otherwise never back it can publicly support it to give themselves cover, just like Kamala Harris previously did. If Dore and other YouTubers really wanted to change things, they would support debt strikes, labor strikes, boycotts, marches, riots, and maybe targeted
harassmentprotests of politicians and healthcare industry CEOs and lobbyists. AOC and the squad aren't going to give anyone healthcare, no matter what they do. The only way to real change is going to be from outside the system, and I wish Dore and others were discussing this instead of putting all their eggs in the basket of electoral politics.
This is pretty classic Marxist electoral strategy, even if Dore isn’t a Marxist. You constantly push demands and distinguish yourself from your opponents, use every bullhorn you can to make people aware of who their enemies are and what they believe. Criticize them substantially, make clear that what they’re saying is that they disdain your demands, they think you deserve to be exploited, excluded from power, left to fester in the pits that the market throws people into. Constantly rally people to the flag.
I agree with this and support the idea, but my problem is that Dore and others pushing this don't seem to have any larger strategy. Even if a vote does somehow serve as a way to expose politicians who would vote against it (which I'm skeptical of), then what do we do with that knowledge? We already know who is against it, yet we continue to do nothing. The real debate should be around this, in my opinion, and not simply pushing a performative measure that accomplishes nothing. We need to start seriously considering what actions we can all take instead of expecting our rigged political system to somehow unfuck itself enough to grant us healthcare.
Neither does any other youtube left channel. What is Sam Seder telling people to do? Or any of them? None of them are like "yeah we need to turn DSA into a Marxist org or party that can participate in elections without being total libs about it".
There are YouTube channels that would and do say this, but maybe not specifically about M4A, and those channels probably occupy a different space than the socdem channels like Sam Seder, Kulinski, Jimmy Dore, etc.
FWIW, Jamie Peck, who is on Sam Seder's show, did actually talk about this on Twitter today.
if this is what shows people the limits of electoralism that’s a positive
It doesn't. People won't make the connection unless you point it out to them.
This is why it's important for worker parties to exist: they have the ability to push for these pressing issues, and the ability to project the failures of electoralism when the bougeoise inevitably crush it for their bottom line.
despite the fact that she represents a specific constituency that ISN’T them
Sure she does.
The idea that the house only represents people in one district is insane.
There is no point to even trying to elect these people if this is how they act.
She's giving the same tired excuses as every shithead for the last 40 years.
I mean its also the product of DSA endorsing left-libs like AOC instead of fielding their own genuinely socialist candidates and creating mechanisms to hold them ideologically accountable.
The vote don't do anything because all the cosponsors can vote yes knowing it's not going to pass. AOC should absolutely not vote for Pelosi without concessions but this is not a useful concession
I don't think it's beyond the pale. AOC never committed to supporting Pelosi after the election in 2018, and I think thats how she got onto the Oversight Committee. Pelosi is negotiating with them right now as it's her last term, the Squad is larger and has more leverage, and she would probably want to avoid conflict at the start of the term. If the concessions are bad, that sucks. But my point is that an M4A vote does not really help so literally anything else would be more beneficial
Imagine how feckless the US left is that Jimmy Dore can get as much traction as them
People shit on Dore for being dumb. And I think he has gotten less dumb over the years I've watched him. I usually watch here and there when I feel like being pissed off at this shit hole of a country.
But his biggest asset is that his a comedian. He knows how to deal with hecklers and it doesn't bother him. Where as aoc is thinking about leaving a prominent political career becuase she can't take the pressure of people not likimg her.
I am also a dum dum, but in my view the left needs to, when doing electoralism, focus their efforts on propping up candidates who thrive on hatred and revel in it instead of normies who want everyone to like them. I don't see how a person like the latter can ever be useful to challenging power.
But his biggest asset is that his a comedian
Jon Stewart will surely save us
Bro, seeing people here actually stan Dore is really depressing. You can acknowledge he made a good point or say you agree with him sometimes, but please let's not act like he's some brilliant leftist voice -- he is not.
EDIT: I read more, and people are staning and defending Tulsi too. God damn it. I really thought this was a place where I wouldn't have to read shit like that. I'm gonna join some hardcore Maoist discord or some shit.
Lol are you serious? This literally is a bubble, you understand that, right? You're saying this to me in a bubble for certain types of leftists lmao
Yes I'm dead serious.
Dore is our Alex Jones. Embrace it or get ready for fascism.
Yourdon't need to like him, your thoughts are already past needing him to trigger that rage brain that opens you to the left.
Right? Shouldn't be that hard to criticize the progressive caucus without defending these creeps.
Bro in what world is he good? He's a braindead Tusli stan. Just cause he's right every now and then, doesn't make him good, nor an actual leftist.
Has he addressed Tulsi's recent actions since he was/is a big stan of hers?
After she endorsed Biden he more or less dumped her. At this point bringing up Tulsi just seems like concern trolling.
House Democrats vote for things they don't support knowing they'll die in the Senate all the time. A vote in the House in meaningless. All the cosponsors can vote yes, but you still don't know if they would actually support it if we had President Sanders and Dem majorities in Congress.
The biggest problem is Jimmy Dore is the one calling this out, and people hate him because he's a huge crank. As for the left, we are completely underestimating our influence, but at the same time Dore really overestimates the lefts influence.
The biggest problem is Jimmy Dore is the ONLY one calling this out
FTFY. Better lefties should be the ones doing it, so why are they silent?
Chris Hedges quoting Cornel West when both attended Occupy, "Where are all the... so-called... intellectuals?"
Becuase other captured lefties buy into the civility discourse.
She said she would not run for it again in 2022. “Pelosi out by 2022” was a concession to get anti-Pelosi Dems to support her in 2018.
The problem is that a floor vote is meaningless as long as everyone knows that the Senate will block this. If Dems have 50 Senate votes + VP, then go for it and demand that it is put in a bigger reconciliation bill that needs only 50 Senate votes.
There's already a long long list of Dems who oppose M4A to primary. The cosponsors will vote Yes to get off that lost bit will turn against it later if they actually get power. What's going to be gained?
Good!! Let him veto it. It'll show people who he is. Then when he nominates some fuck like Kamala as his heir, the NEW "most progressive candidate ever" more voters will know that they're all full of shit.
Obama didn't just lose the left with the ACA and bank bailouts with no strings attached - he lost his shine with the Democratic base as well. Not everyone notices that they're being fucked, but some do - and the more you shine a light on it the more pressure there is for change.
Obama would have left office with a negative approval rating if not for Trump clowning around.
He was in the negatives a year into his first term and his 40% for a bit towards the end of his second year.
Biden isn't even going to last that long. Disaster of a president.
It does not look like Democrats are ending the fillibuster, meaning M4A would need 10 GOP Senate votes to reach Biden
Forcing Biden to veto M4A would be awesome. But letting M4A just die in GOP-controlled Congress is pointless.
