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:geordi-no: Posting dog-murder
:geordi-yes: Posting vegan recipies
Is it just official admin policy now to make every mod post as inflammatory and hostile as possible?
It's because of r*ddit brain. You can take chapo.chat off r*ddit, but you can never take the r*ddit brain and r*ddit tier arguments out of chapo.chat
I'm so happy that this exists. Wikipedia is my favourite thing that humans have created.
just make an alt if you don't want your posts to seem endorsed by a mod
Why is the Mod symbol next to your name an M on the post and an S in the comments?
I see all sorts of vegan stuff posted here that doesn't provoke strong, negative reactions. Obviously you're going to get strong, negative reactions when you post deliberately provocative stuff (that's far from original, to boot) and then double down on negativity when people react exactly as you were hoping they would.
Oh it literally does. Shit like this turns more people off of veganism than it converts. It's just really immature, it reminds me of the cringe one liners I would say once I started getting into anticapitalism.
The type of people you invite to a party once and then never again.
Yeah, as internet leftists it's a core belief of ours that bullying does not, in fact, work.
Fr though I was omni, got bullied, and now I'm vegan.
I used to support Medicare for all but then Bernie supporters were mean to me online :(
No, this is exactly the same tone policing concern trolling that reactionaries do, that gets made fun of here so often.
How would you define tone policing, and how is it distinct from any criticism of tone whatsoever?
Say your buddy wants to convince your org to do some mutual aid project. He's going to make some remarks at your meeting tonight and he gives you his notes to look over. You think he's got a good idea for the project, but he's planning on insulting everyone right out of the gate and being as abrasive as possible when he takes questions.
Are you tone policing him if you say that's a bad idea?
Bernie didn't win, so we should be open to the idea that trolling people online might not be the most effective communication strategy.
Besides, being an ass should be reserved for chuds, not people who might be persuaded to agree with you. No one wants to be part of a group where everyone's just shitty to each other all the time.
I always think back to that "if you don't talk to them, someone else will" image that used to circulate. Reactionary ideas should definitely be called out and deried, but putting in the time and effort to reach out to people who are at least possibly sympathetic to your views is one of the small (but important) things any leftist can do.
You've missed out on cornering the reactionary vegan market tbh. As a capitalist, this is terrible modus operandi. Start advertising a lentils box or something.
The difference is that in this scenario the person starts believing the good thing, then turns away from it without a convincing argument. That indicates they never believed in it.
With Veganism, you have people starting as non-vegans, getting approached by vegans who are not making a good faith effort, not treating them with respect, make no progress, and everything stays the same.
No, this is just that famous subtlety that v*g*ns are known for
I'm so owned. I've never thought that incredibly original thought before right now.
Wait until you find out what has to happen to keep your power running.
Absolutely, that's why I'm going to be a condescending prick at any mention of watching a movie or playing a video game.
Edit: Oh no, do we not get to talk about the genocide & ecological destruction required to keep your video game habit going :(((
that’s why I’m going to be a condescending prick at any mention of watching a movie or playing a video game.
This but unironically
It was more of an anti g*mer and movie/marvel nerd joke than anything else tbh
If your goal is to dunk on people, go for it.
But do it in the appropriate place. If you're not looking to actually change minds, stick to c/vegan.
Can the next struggle session be funny? This one is annoying and full of reddit-tier condescension.
Where is this pretence you keep refuting that dash was hurt or betrayed by an unexpected backlash to his posts? All I see is him highlighting how laughably dumb and defensive people were being.
Do you go to every post on the dunk tank and say "why are you pretending this was unexpected?"
We make fun of bad takes. It's pretty common here. I'm just not seeing that extra leap you're taking to dishonestly pretending that it's unexpected. And the even bigger leap to tone policing. How is making fun of somebody for equating veganism with being pro life tone policing?
I really liked the dachshund:fish meme.
Kinda reminded me of the "I think my dog is sick" meme
This is why the subreddit was better because at least you got new users to cycle in and out with slightly different takes, posting styles, etc. Everything's stale as fuck here and it's basically the same people making the same arguments. People didn't get worn out on the struggle sessions as much even though they were probably bigger on the subreddit. It's literally like every 2-4 days here there's a new one and people trying to be out-offended by the other.
It's also that instead of a 500 comment thread, we have dozens of threads on the same subject, people making posts about comments on threads talking about the discussion on other posts... The place gets suffocated with each struggle sesh.
2 people started this thing. They posted on c/food, then c/main, then it blew up. 3 people asked what this was about. Others mocked or responded in different posts.
"You can't be a leftist if you don't support animal rights" is also a hot take. It's absurd and wrong to say you can't support worker's rights, trans rights, minority rights, etc without also agreeing on an unrelated issue. It's also historically illiterate (see CW tab if you dare). You can advocate your own views without being a hostile asshole, without imposing purity tests, etc. If you have a problem with your fellow leftists, engage them in good faith. Just because they have problematic views doesn't mean they're not your comrades. Dogposting isn't an argument. It's just hostility. I've tried using arguments like these before. I can assure you they don't work.
CW: Animal Cruelty
:lenin-shining: :bonk:
Lenin killed bunnies. Brutally. Beat them to death with a stick.
:rosa: This girl wanted to raise Geese. :honk: Lock them in a cage, forcefeed them, kill them for their liver. The worst form of meat farming.
:trot-shining: A hunter. Beat rodents to death with a stick for lunch money, threw rocks at pigeons, and went hunting with Lenin.
This is what happens when you force your shitpost circlejerk deliberately designed to be offensive ourside the circle. Yeah. You'll get pushback.
This stuff is designed to do that. To be offensive, to be triggering, to make people unconfortable. It's not even aimed at meat eaters. We have people on here who hunt or are exposed to cultures where eating dogs is normal. They're not having their minds changed. That's because none of these posts even try to explain why you should have empathy for animals. They only try to induce a visceral reaction in people who love dogs.
Meanwhile, I don't eat meat. I find the concept disgusting. I find the sight of meat disgusting. But I own a dog. The mental image of dogs being butchered made me feel physically sick. This ruined the site for me. I can't even look at my dog without thinking about it. I unsubscribed from c/food because of it, but it won't go away. Why is that not locked to the appropriate community? Why does it not need a content warning? Why do we have comms if not to filter out content we don't want?
I came to the conclusion that vegans were morally right a long time ago, so I don't feel the need to argue. Eating meat is not really defensible morally on pretty much any level. And you can at least adknowledge that if you eat meat.
Everything I own, essentially, was produced with slave labor at some point in its supply chain, but it's not like I stan slavery to make myself feel better about it
New bit: The anti-vegan 'meatarian' identity but they just really like slave labor goods to anger people
Oh, it's the leftist "no ethical consumption" argument as to why they do animal cruelty. That's a classic.
Damn, dude, you can't even let someone agree with you huh
Yes, cows are equal to e coli, there is no possible suffering of a non human animal.
People spending the whole day making extremely hostile posts about rules about food tends to make my eating disorder rear its head so I end up spiraling for awhile, mainly
Me too. My food restriction was always about not "deserving" to eat, so anything moralistic is really tough to deal with.
CW: discussion about potential eating disorders
Yeah it was a bad day for me to log on to this website. I'm currently struggling to even get two meals a day down. Between the shit tier vegan bait posting and the reactionary, r*ddit brain arguments against veganism I think I'm going to log off for a bit.
I should probably follow your lead and log off too. I just started a more intensive trauma therapy modality and it's been wearing me out, I really don't need to add any extra stress.
disordered eating stuff
I just spent two days full-on bingeing/dissociating after a difficult session, and then until I saw this comment thread I hadn't even realized that I hadn't eaten at all today. It's always one or the other extreme for me.
CW: more eating disorder stuff
Yeah the binge eating followed by not eating anything really gets to me sometimes. The other day during a binge I managed to eat fucking 4000 calories in one day. Then the next week I don't eat till 5 in the afternoon. I'm really trying to find something that works, I'm over 6ft/183cm tall and weigh in between 110-120lbs/50-55kg, I know this isn't healthy but fuck I'm really trying y'know?
Oh mood, me too. Hope you're hanging in there comrade :heart-sickle:
Yeah same, I do my best but every time I've gone too far down trying has wound up super unhealthy. Hope you're doing okay comrade :heart-sickle:
I think the vegans are correct, but I also think meat tastes good and overall beating people over the head telling them their consumption choices (which is basically the only choices they get to make day to day) are bad is alienating.
I like how you completely disregarded my other point though lol but okay.
If you really wanna get to my point I'm mexican, I like meat, tons of my cultural dishes use meat, I'm not gonna give up eating it just to make white people feel better about the shitty things their governments have done
I’m still confused.
Clearly
have you seen the shit white people eat? their “cultural cuisine” includes at least as much meat, with hamburgers, hotdogs, etc.
No "the hamburger" isn't a cultural dish.
but still, you’re reducing this to race in such a bizzare way
I'm not surprised you can't comprehend what I'm saying whitey. I know considering the point of other races isn't your strong suit.
do you exclusively fix the ac systems of vegan people’s summer homes?
No they typically eat meat too, they're just more wasteful in one lifetime than an entire village could ever be.
No “the hamburger” isn’t a cultural dish.
:michael-laugh:
Reverse cultural chauvinism isn't actually going to help anyone. You guys have to divert the conversation from the harm of animals to other tangential issues every time like this. Just chill out.
I agree this shouldn't be a personal decision. People shouldn't be made to feel guilty about their consumption, or anxious about having to do a moral choice in the first place. All of the consumption choices should be ethical and sustainable. Unfortunately, they are not, so the individual lives with the burden.
The basis of traditional mexican food is plants based. Maíz, frijol, calabaza, chile, tomate, nopales, arroz, etc. Veganism is not incompatible with your culture, it's probably one of the easiest ones to convert.
The point is not to make white people feel better, it's to do something about the problem, to change the culture. Do you at least agree that (certain aspects of) the culture needs to change, and that that involves you?
People shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about their consumption
Yes they should
You absolutely know what the fuck you're doing when you post the dog shit. You can't deliberately be provocative and shocking and then take umbrage when people are provoked and shocked.
I'm not interested in getting in a debate about veganism with you, and I didn't really give a fuck about the dog posts. But this whole act where you're going "All us widdle vegans did was compare your normal eating habits to eating your own pets and now you're MAD??? You must be reactionary 😡 😡 😡 " is some real bullshit. If you're going out of your way to make people mad, then you need to accept the consequences of making people mad.
In that case it's weird that you went with (and doubled down on) the absolute least effective way to do it.
Because religions are systems of worshiping magic, and have no core logic. Religions, unsurprisingly, have also been used to justify pretty egregious actions against people too.
this site will forever remain some obscure sect of mentally ill ex-redditors.
Love mocking my fellow users as mentally ill.
Yeah Western/US culture instils us with all kinds of stupid, shitty, harmful values. I don't come to Chapo dot chat to see people be all fragile when they're challenged
Obviously we understand the context, we were all raised with it.
The point of swapping out comparable animals is to challenge those cultural norms in the same way we were that changed our thinking.
Except not everyone was raised with it.
Your gross and idiotic strategy makes me embarrassed to have been raised vegan.
Its okay to be murdered if you were selectively bred by humans to maximize profits, okay. What about dogs bred to be eaten then?
Bruh literally chows
Also again, human ego exerted onto a different species isn't the end all be all of whether or not it deserves to live
Thousands of years of culture?
Yeah, logically speaking there is no difference between eating a cow or a dog. But one has been bred as livestock for thousands of years and the other has been bred for companionship.
It angers me when I see bits on my front page that are joking about me. The bits are supposed to be about other people! That's why I come to this echo chamber.
Vegans are 100% correct and I've been slowly switching to vegan things (I'm already vegetarian) when I can, but that's taking into account that vegan choices tend to be more expensive and are something I consider a privilege to be able to do. When I say expensive, I mean all the various kinds of expense : some things can be literally more expensive, but in most cases it's expensive in terms of time and energy (researching, finding places to buy specific things, cooking) which are often forgotten.
A lot of people work and struggle and while yes they could be vegans, and yes a lot of things "are not more expensive or even cheaper", it's really blind to not realize the amount of time and energy you need when you're not already vegetarian/vegan. It takes time and effort, enough free time and/or mental energy to research, to prepare, learn to cook, etc., and it's helped by better material conditions in your life and a wider societal change in consumption a lot more than by pointless provocation.
In my own experience, even though I already agreed completely, it still took me a lot of time (and was helped when I stopped working for a while so I could get my head out of the grind and actually work on myself and change some habits) to change things, change habits, find what I like and where I could buy things I need without them being stupidly expensive (let's not ignore the fact that capitalism is very good at adapting and there is a HUGE grift of "healthy"/vegetarian/vegan products that are extremely over-priced and actually have much, MUCH bigger ecological or social footprint) while balancing the fact that I don't have that much time or energy to constantly get ingredients and cook them, find replacements to things I'm used to eating or already know how to do, I barely know how to cook to begin with, and I don't like cooking.
Don't get me wrong a lot of the "bullying" is fine and good, and I agree a lot of this site has an ugly reaction to veganism and it's fucking weird, but still.
Thank god veganism is correct and has very strong arguments on its own that would have always convinced me anyway, because I certainly wasn't convinced or helped in that path by online vegans.
I 100% agree too that veganism is correct but I do think that it can be a bit hostile sometimes as well. As much as it sucks, meat eating is ingrained in our cultures since basically the dawn of man, people are going to be slow to change their patterns on this especially when there's a lot of things that get in their way. Like "Hey vegetables are actually real cheap if you know how to cook them right" isn't going to do anything for people who don't know how (and are thus scared to) or don't have time to cook.
I've also seen mentioned before about things like "food trauma" wherein people being forced to eat things against their will as a child can often make it difficult for them as an adult. I have an aunt who won't eat cake or donuts or other "celebration" foods not because she doesn't like the taste but because she was forced into eating them to "be polite" at other parties by the same father who beat her. It's a psychological blockage that while it might be possible to get over, is really hard and clearly makes her feel a lot of pain to tackle. And when you look at how parents often handle vegetables when it comes to children, you can probably see how this thing pops up in many adults later on. Veggies are treated as a punishment, not normal food, and you get screamed and spanked if you don't eat them. Especially for people with other mental issues like those autistic kids (obviously not all autistic people but the ones who are like this) who can only be gotten to eat the most simple foods such as chicken nuggets or mac and cheese.
That's not to say that we should just shrug and give up on making the world vegan, but rather that we do need to approach it with a caring and understanding attitude as to why it can be so hard for people.
If you can afford to do so, I recommend obtaining a rice cooker and/or a crock pot. They great ways to cook food when you don't know how to cook. Because I'm a petit bourgeoisie piece of shit I have a rice cooker that steams vegetables at the same time and now a substantial portion of my meals are rice and assorted vegetables. I'm sure you could get a normal rice cooker to do the same, all you need is a basket that fits correctly with the bowl and the lid. Rice cookers are also good for making lentils, and sometimes I make lentils and rice at the same time to mixed success. The lentils are always a little crunchy but I'm sure if I soaked them/wasnt a lazy piece of shit then it'd work better.
That is a great idea, and one of the flatmates just got a "multi-cooker" thingy that I was gonna try things on. Rice+X for every meal here I come!
Broccoli and lentils are both high in protein and various micronutrients! Plus steamed broccoli is my favourite food (:
I don't understand the "VEGANISM IS SO EXPENSIVE" meme
lentils are literally the cheapest edible thing on planet earth
the only way veganism is expensive is if you live in a really bad food desert, which some do, but I guarantee most on here or reddit do not.
I feel like I've explained the meaning of "expensive" already in detail in my comment. For this specific example, yes, you're right, but i'm not eating only lentils every day of my life. I need a balanced diet of different things, some easier to get/cook than others. I also need to figure out what I like and try things and replacements for things I already like, maybe that's just me but habits are very hard for me to change and require an enormous amount of mental energy. Every little habit is something I don't have to think about or spend energy on, it's automated : I know what it is, where to get it, how to cook it, I like it, etc..
The expensive vege/vegan things are pre-prepared food and such things where you essentially buy the time/energy you don't have with more varied/nicer things, and I do buy some of those because I don't have a lot of time/energy. I'm trying to buy less of them and cook them more myself, but yet again that's a lot of time/energy.
Edit: also something else I thought of, vegetarian is now way easier and eating lentils to me is more vegetarian. Vegan is a bit of a step further in the amount of research and work you need to do to make sure animals aren't involved in the process, because holy shit the amount of times i've found out something I thought was innocuous is actually not vegan-friendly.
I think when people say "being vegan is more expensive", it stems from premade vegan items (donuts, premade dinners) being more expensive than their non-vegan counterparts.
Being a from-scratch vegan is cheaper. Buying premade is not only because of the vegan tax.
Yeah we need better culinary education, it's weird that our schools in the US barely cover diet let alone ever teach us how to cook for ourselves.
And even the diet classes have been infiltrated by marketing from the meat and dairy lobby.
Uhhh, because the conflation of leftism and veganism requires a set foundational premises that are not universally agreed upon on the left.
This is the same reason people throw shitfits about China, totalitarianism, market socialism, or anything else.
You might think you've got the right set of foundational premises to deduce the correct conclusions, but so does everyone else, and yet they still disagree with you.
This is the same reason people throw shitfits about China, totalitarianism, market socialism, or anything else.
It isn't tho
China is a world away and the only people who throw shitfits about it are actual white supremacists or their brainwashees. I can hold a positive opinion of China and it doesn't cost me anything.
Veganism actually forces me to change something about myself and that's uncomfortable.
That being said, I also don't think complete veganism will ever happen, there's never been a vegan traditional culture on earth, I was raised as a vegetarian and craved meat, even boiled chicken at least once a week or so
That ALSO being said virtually everyone in the western world eats too much meat out of habit/gluttony
Veganism actually forces me to change something about myself and that’s uncomfortable.
Having your opinion changed on China does as well, so I am not sure what distinction you're trying to draw. Beginning to see that you've been an 'unwitting pawn parroting CIA propaganda' (or whatever the line is) seems pretty uncomfortable to me.
Beginning to see that you’ve been an ‘unwitting pawn parroting CIA propaganda’ (or whatever the line is) seems pretty uncomfortable to me.
idk, it wasn't even remotely uncomfortable for me. It was actually really exciting, and it opened up a whole new perspective of knowledge and had me second-guess a lot of "established" facts.
eating zero meat: definitely very uncomfortable for me. I would compare not eating meat to not orgasming, it's just extremely hard to resist that, which is why I still do it
idk, it wasn’t even remotely uncomfortable for me. It was actually really exciting, and it opened up a whole new perspective of knowledge and had me second-guess a lot of “established” facts.
I mean you can say the same thing about anti-imperialism and leftism so I'm really straining to see the distinction you're trying to draw.
so I’m really straining to see the distinction you’re trying to
new way of thinking =/= new way of eating
the former is easier to doI mean you can say the same thing about anti-imperialism and leftism
those things aren't being vegan. being vegan is less appealing for people than agreeing with things.
Let's put it this way: I had no idea what a democrosocialiwhatchamalit was when I was 4 years old. But I knew that flesh go in tumtum = tum feel good. Obviously that gastronomical material craving is stronger than any political leaningFor veganism, a new way of thinking precedes the new way of eating.
Did you post this in main to get a divisive reaction? Did you think this post would be convincing? Do you really think shame, on a dwindling internet forum , already struggling to keep its identity would enable any of your goals?
Best post was someone doing an existential nihilism to try and own the vegans ™️. Such a bizarre take.
frankly anyone on a socialist shitposting site that is also trying to argue life has no inherent value should be chased out of town
I know it's a bit account, but this reminds me of those "leftists" who use "no ethical consumption under capitalism" as an excuse to do whatever the fuck they want, no matter how exploitative or bad.
It wasn't even existential nihilism which is about the purpose of life rather than the value within it, but a fallacious kind of moral nihilism that still makes moral assertions that you see from 24-year-old dudebro pseuds. The worst kind of posts.
To be honest I didn't read the post past the line where they said "life has no intrinsic value" so I just jumped to existential nihilism. Still really weird.
