Yeah, I give a ton of shit to Western politicians for their distant future plans. This really isn't terribly different. I get its not easy to make these changes, but we're literally out of time. Shits already getting worse.
We can’t actually plan shit as long as we have capitalist relations dictating what gets produced, and how goods are distributed, according to a suicidal perpetual growth trajectory. Forget avoiding it, under capitalism we can’t even realistically plan to mitigate the fallout of climate change —the mass displacement and migration, the breakdown of supply lines, the mass starvation and lack of water.
The climate crisis is a crisis of capitalist production, and any meaningful plan to address the crisis will be a plan to get rid of capitalism and win socialism internationally.
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a little working class political leadership from the self-proclaimed socialist government of the largest nation in the world?
China is still a developing country of a billion and half people with ever increasing emissions due to its growth.
PPM don't care. PPM don't give a fuck.
That is also depressing - that when we're talking about a 5-8 degree Celsius increase, that 0.2-0.3 is literally the best that the most capable country in the world can do -- and it will be fought tooth and nail by global energy interests.
I'm sorry, but are we talking about a 5-8 degree Celsius increase? I thought we were worrying about 1.5 or 2 degrees
Exactly what the ghost said. The media reports 1.5-2. that's already locked in. The most up to date data I've seen shows that we are already at about 1-1.5 C above preindustrial levels. Like, right now.
The actual models are showing our current track puts us towards 5-8C if nothing changes in the way we are using fossil fuels and consumption.
These also still underestimate the way we're seeing positive feedback mechanisms and tipping points occurring like Antarctic warming, disruption of the ocean currents, and methane release from the permafrost.
It's very depressing, we need big change.
I think 1.5C is story book catastrophe. 5C is to the Earth what Luke's torpedoes were to the death star. 8C is as incomprehensible as a billionaire's wealth.
Edit: I might have misspoke, it looks like 1.5C is the target which, while still warm and damaging and causing catastrophe, isn't a storybook horror. I think I heard an off-the-cuff about how bad 3C is.
I have such a hard time understanding that but embarrassed to admit it. Could you explain or link to something that goes into why a few degrees matter so much?
https://xkcd.com/1732/
This is the clearest and most concise I've ever seen it presented. I'll try to find the expert quote I heard about that 1.5C comment, one sec
Here's a digestable surface level news site talking about the significance of the half degree between 1.5 and 2 extolling the insanity of 5-8
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45678338
Of course. I'm sorry I can't find anything salient about how terrible anything above 2C is. If anyone wants to help I'd be grateful, but I'm going to continue on from here.
My gut tells me it was the citations needed episode 108 where I would have heard something like this - it's absolutely something everyone should check out as it is the official podcast of the Lemmy
Dang. Well I sure hope you're wrong, for all our sakes
a 1.5 and subsequently 2 degrees set us on a path of 4-5 degree celsius by 2100
I can't find anything right now, I'll look again later, but here's one that suggests a model that would predict 4-5C, and also doesn't take into account many of the feedback loops that are occurring faster than predicted.
It will be fought tooth and nail by the local party too. Coal power use hugely spiked in 2018 onward because the local party officials refused to use imported solar power from western China. They are already doing unneeded production increases as a jobs program. The compartmentalization coastal factories prefer has resulted in hundreds of tiny coal power plants each one going to one or two factories, it's really not good.
tbf imported solar power has massive cost effects, there is a huge issue with storing and transferring solar power which is why it is not popular on a countrywide scale. this is why china is building a fuckton of nuclear plants. its a constant, effective source of energy that you can place almost anywhere due to new tech.
solar does have its uses (re: in a place that is sunny, has no sand, has low wind, and cannot be easily accessed nor a grid built) but it will never be the big player. wind, nuclear, and hydro are gonna be the big players.
Nuclear doesn't look too good either, the Chinese Nuclear Association has continuously lowered expectations and they failed to meet all goals between 2010 and 2020. The only thing that massively ramped up was new coal power plants.
whats your source on that? afaik they were trying to increase safety after fukushima and have continued normal production. china is the only country to not have a major incident with nuclear despite high levels of continuous operation. they also work with france which has a similar track record.
iirc theyre going to be relying heavily on hydro, wind, and nuclear going up to the 2060 mark, with around 25% nuclear projected by 2060 at the current rate. considering how much fucking energy china uses, that is a lot of nuclear plants.
Here's an article on the slowdown from 2017, https://www.neimagazine.com/opinion/opinionnuclear-in-china-why-the-slowdown-5896525/
I went and checked current construction status and it does not look that different, they did not meet the 2020 targets.
Watch western media spin Chinas commitment in some sinister way.
Maybe something like these:
Those solar panels, they’re built using slave labor.
China destroying the natural habitat of sand by reclaiming deserts.
China is using nuclear power for balancing their CO2 footprint.
The cells in those solar panels are nearly impossible to recycle.
pretty much like everything else humanity has shat out
wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang wind and nuclear gang
Overheard about this on the radio yesterday, they ended the news with: "Xi didnt tell us how they're going to do it."
Now I know for a fact that if a western country head would come out and say what Xi said they'd be falling over themselves fellating them but when China comes along nope, you gotta have all the graphs and plans and a pile of reserch ready to show to our western (white) experts so we can denounce it.
Nothing wrong with scepticism but the white chauvinism is really showing.
This is exactly the correct take.
Joe fucking Biden's climate plan is objectively better than this, but uh... chapo. China good.
this image got me dead lol
https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GettyImages-186080009.jpg?resize=800,533&quality=90
Now all xi needs to do is invade Indonesia and Brazil (and the USA) and save the forests there too.
xi needs to do is invade Indonesia and Brazil (and the USA)
imperialism but woke
Imperialism is when you invade places and the more places you invade the more imperialister it is
Exactly, like Canada was imperialisting in France and Europe to fight Nazis in WW2
Critical Support to Nazi Germany in its struggle against Soviet and Western Imperialism 😔
Didn't Bordiga literally say this?
Edit:
Therefore, June 10 (the date of Mussolini's declaration of war) was for me what you call a great day. But now that Hitler has grown soft, I begin to lose the trust I had placed in the Axis to strangle and pull down the so-called British colossus, that is, the greatest exponent of capitalism. They are afraid of bringing down England, they are afraid because they know that with it, the whole capitalist system will collapse. [...] I still hope that Hitler will not renounce the struggle, and will go all the way, to the extreme consequences.
The great and authentic revolutionaries of the world are two: Mussolini and Hitler. But Mussolini's past shows that Il Duce has always been against the plutocracy and against the democracies, which paralyze the life of nations.
Stalin, allying himself with London and Washington, has betrayed the cause of the proletariat. Moreover, I can say that on this I agree with Il Duce, when he says, as he did in his speech from last November, that if there is a man who desperately wanted the war, who first prepared it and then instigated it, it is the American president. From my point of view, however, I clarify that Roosevelt is nothing but the exponent of supercapitalism that aims at the conquest of a totalitarian imperialism.
fyi this coincides with their nuclear roadmap. by 2060, china will have the most nuclear plants in the world by a long shot.
nuclear gets the goods.
No, the guy exterminating muslims in his country did not “save the world”.
People are being tortured and mutilated in concentration camps in China right now but yeah, whatever you need to tell yourself.
Do you have literally any evidence for this that does not come from Adrian Zenz?
Let’s address Zenz first since you naively seem to believe him to be the only example. What exactly about his claim (not he himself, but the claims he made using data provided directly by the ccp itself) do you find so hard to believe that you would dismiss any accusation of genocide at all as being a psy-op.
Fill your boots: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit?ouid=104343924564237344347&usp=docs_home&ths=true
How about you directly answer my question instead of hiding behind a nonsequitor link like a bitch
You asked about Zenz and were given a document that in part discusses Zenz. I don't think that counts as a nonsequitor.
I didn’t ask for a document related to Zenz. I asked that specific person what specific things about what Zenz claimed using data provided directly by China itself do they feel disqualifies any discussion at all about the uyghur genocide.
The reality is that 99-100% of the people here claiming the genocide is fake news are just parroting what other people here have said, because that’s what they care about. They’d rather fit in with the community than actually look into whether or not people are being tortured, sterilized, raped, whatever.
Shit like this is why I don’t trust white leftists. It’s literally just a personality trait for you. You don’t give a shit about making anyone’s life better or fighting injustice, just distancing yourself from your countries past. Get fucked.
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Don't you fucking dare assume you know what my ethnicity is.
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Every single actually existing socialist nation supports China.
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Every single Muslim country supports China's handling of the situation. You want to claim that this is about white fucking people when literally ALL fucking Muslim countries oppose you. Who the fuck is the person not listening here? Who is the person shouting down the actual Muslims? Not fucking me.
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If you want to continue this conversation with me any further you need to show us your dick. That's the lib tax I'm afraid.
guys it’s ok, MBS and all the poor Muslim governments beholden to capital say China can do what they want
Dumbass
Nah that's bullshit. Countries that don't want to upset anyone just abstain from making a statement. These countries took more of a hit to their diplomatic relationships in the world by coming out in support instead of being cucked by western imperialist attempt to disrupt the Xinjiang region because of its strategic importance to the Belt and Road trade initiative.
Here, listen to it straight from Former Chief of Staff to the Secretary of State in an incredibly honest mask-off moment before any of this bullshit even started.
Attempting to cause unrest and disrupt Xinjiang was of extremely strategic value to the US because Xinjiang is a key bottleneck in the Belt and Road initiative.
No thats bullshit.
Unlike you, I’ve actually lived in muslim countries and understand the leadership don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves. You can justify it in whatever ideologically convenient way you want, I’m speaking from personal experience here so you’re not likely to brainwash me with the same stupid shit you ate up elsewhere.
No it's not. How can you fucking listen to members of the state department literally involved in the longterm strategic planning of this shit and then completely and totally dismiss it as bullshit?
You literally just heard it from the horse's mouth.
You're poking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalalala". It's fucking embarrassing behaviour. You've literally closed your eyes and ears to anything except what you're fed by US policy institutes and their media tendrils.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/421/934/795.jpg
When you're asked to present evidence for your claims you completely ignore it and then when you are presented with evidence to the contrary you completely ignore that, too. All of that I can tolerate. But I do believe you have been told to post hog. Ignoring that will not stand.
I did present evidence. It was met with bad faith responses. Believe what you want.
What you've presented is a link to a subreddit. Now present hog.
Lol nothing about this is an ad hominem. She said muslim leadership is credible because of who they are and I explained to her that they have class allegiances outside their religious credentials. If you just want to ban me because you don’t like me, go ahead. But don’t pretend it’s because I’m arguing in “bad faith” when I’m the only person here with an ounce of sympathy for what the CCP is putting the Uyghurs through.
It’s straight, I’ll get tired of posting here eventually anyway. Sorry for the headache you probably had to deal with from reports. I try to space my ccp posting out so you aren’t inundated with it, but the realities are too dark for me to not talk about it at all.
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Shit like this is why I don’t trust white leftists
swallows white propaganda designed to provoke a war with the most powerful non-white country on the planet
yes sweaty it's just a coincidence that all the white countries and their vassal states hate China
Cmon this should be a softball! It’s Adrian Zenz! Everyone here hates him so much they don’t care if China is killing thousands of people! If you can’t even address that, what’s the point of taking you seriously?
Being not a lib means supporting a hyper capitalist terror state role playing as a communist govt that has the total backing of corporate America. The more corporations I make happy, the less of a lib I am _
Being not a lib means uncritically just believing a white, German born again Christian who speaks nor reads Mandarin and believes God sent him to punish Beijing when he says that China is torturing and killing millions of Muslims.
total backing of corporate America
lol, ok buddy
📬 🐖
Zenz is a nutjob. No argument from me there. Having said that, if the only thing you have to say in response to the claims he made is about his character and not about the data he used that came directly from the ccp itself, you’re a sucker and not worth anyone taking seriously, ever. You’re welcome to keep larping like an imbecile, but don’t expect anything useful to happen.
Why should i whitewash the truth to make sensitive white commie larpers feel better about supporting a hyper capitalist terror state that has the support of every corporation in America
People are being tortured and mutilated in concentration camps
FUCK CHINA for creating guantanamo bay
https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeTheUyghurs/
There you go. Take your pick.
Lmao literally the second post on that sub has an image from detention centers in Texas claiming it’s from xinjiang.
The only comment in that thread is someone from the sub pointing that out as false information. How about you take something thousands of people have been killed over seriously for a little longer than the two seconds it took you to dismiss it completely.
We do know. Check the sub. Read the accounts. Fight the reflex to resort to ad hominems and consider the stark realities of life in China for these people. If you don’t care, it’s not my job to make you, but it should be clear by now this goes a little farther than Zenz.
Stop regurgitating and uncritically consuming unsubstantiated propaganda that has been rejected for investigation by the international courts as "without evidence". Hearsay from a handful of dissidents amplified by thousands and thousands of media rehashes of the same content over and over and over again is not evidence. This is extremely lib.
Hands off
While I commend your commitment to your Volcel pledge, do you really not understand "post hog?" Can I ask how you found this site?
They are probably CIA; they are trying to turn you guys against China, they need everyone on their side, even leftists
Ad hominem: attacking someones character instead of their argument
If the only thing you have to say in response to the claims these people are making is stupid greentext nonsense meant to derail and delegitimize discussion because you don’t like who is saying it, then you aren’t taking it seriously and just resorting to ad hominems.
So don’t believe his crackpot shit. Focus on the stuff that he took directly from China itself
Only for a very limited definition of argument, which is a logical construct that goes from premises to a conclusion.
They're not critiquing the argument, they're critiquing the credibility of the premises, as they require you to trust their source as they are a claim and not evidence.
uhhhh....*pushes glasses up nose*...that's a logical fallacy....*snorts*....ad hominem, le epically owned
What’s it like to back a government that has the support of every corporation in America and think you’re fighting capitalism?
