If you are transphobic, then you are not a leftist. It's that fucking easy.
:crab-party: :gui-trans: :crab-party: :gui-trans:
I'd like to throw in a Fuck JK Rowling in general as well.
Fuck JK Rowling
If you're taking requests, I would definitely flair that as my pronoun.
"And may the blessed hex bear watch over you as you sleep the sleep of the just, amen."
As far as the "cat" thing, I think that just sent a very confused message. We've been told since before the pronoun tags existed that they were supposed to be super-serious and never used for any kind of joke. Then as soon as a second pass is done to it, a joke is baked in to the system. Just seems like you should be clearer about what you want.
Who's to say which pronouns are serious and which aren't? To me all pronouns are equally silly, but that doesn't mean I want to ban them all. Just let folks do what they want with their pronouns so long as they're not hurting anyone.
it was used by trolls for transphobic / Racial slurs
The same thing could be said about usernames, but usernames are an important feature, so we find other ways to deal with the folks who abuse them. I think the same logic applies to pronouns. 🤷
I noticed a doe/deer option was added at the behest of one of the users here, and I'm new to the neopronoun thing, and they suggested googling to learn more. I did, but I didn't see it included on a list of any sort? Is fulfilling a request for neopronouns something that's specifically catered to vetted veteran members of the site, or can anyone request them? I guess I mean it feels a little in-group/out-group. If it's anything goes, is it conceivable that in a couple years time there could be a pull-down menu of 200 different options, and at what point does it lose meaning or purpose? Like why was cat added, then removed? Can it be reinstated if enough members want it?
Again, it's your site, you can make the rules, and I realize my questions are probably offending a lot of people due to not fully understanding.
Language is what we make of it. I imagine if enough users want it, it can be added back. As a cishet I have no horse in this race beyond not wanting to enable people to be problematic. From my personal experience, the catboy/catgirl thing is fraught. The user who proposed it was a long time troll, but on the other hand I have a close trans internet friend who leans strongly into the cat thing, and I have seen others do it as well - so it is something I have seen happen outside of this website. I suppose there is a whole nuanced debate about where you draw the lines between gender identity, sexuality, and fetish, and self-image. Like, we have furry comrades. Does that fall on the spectrum of gender identity? I don't think so - at least, not exactly. It seems to me like its own spectrum which has some overlaps, but some distinctions as well.
The goal in my opinion should be to make everyone comfortable, but sexuality and gender are pretty complex subjects with some disagreements even within the various subcommunities which make up the LGBTQIA front. As long as the cost to accommodate people is low and nobody is harmed (setting aside the cishet crybabies who have nothing to lose), making these accommodations should be a no-brainer. When there are disagreements, I hope we can foster a productive discussion and advance our understanding of the underlying issues.
Question friend, what's the correct possessive case for doe/deer? Deers?
Tangential note, admins should add the possessive "eirs" for ey/em, makes it a bit more helpful for those not in the know.
I appreciate the response. I ended up doing more reading on neopronouns and found this master list: https://neopronounlist.carrd.co/ (and doe/deer are definitely there)
Would the mods consider maybe uploading the list?
Do you have any posts explaining why these pronouns give you gender euphoria? Or, in fact, how they're connected to gender... like many here I'm new to the idea of neopronouns. I'd also be happy to read any explanations written by others that you can suggest
This is the coolest thing I've learned about in a long time. Thanks!
also, it’d be cute if i had antlers and a tail, i’ll say it
more and more people are saying it
What's the possessive form?
Doe requested these pronouns, as deer gets gender euphoria from them. These are (deer? deir?) pronouns.
fawn actually uses those pronouns, thats why they were added. Doe has had many people attest to that as well. Same goes for pretty much anyone if they so choose. Maybe someday we WILL have 200 pronouns, its not like its a big deal.
@Koa_lala had the suggestion for us to eventually convert the dropdown into one that you could search within, so number of pronouns shouldn't be a problem. :)
Yeah how about just a flair system like the old subreddit.
Yes, a flair system is a great idea. But flair absolutely does not replace pronouns.
Here is a short list for you. Most of them have nothing to do with gender, but rather, other kinds of identities.
https://nonbinary.miraheze.org/wiki/Nounself_pronouns
Worth pointing out deer-related pronouns can be gendered. A doe is a female deer, a stag is a male deer. Why you wouldn't use he/him and she/her to refer to male and female deer-persons is a reasonable question, imo. I am 100% onboard with accommodating gender identities and expressions, but the other categories deserve some skepticism that they haven't received -- except the cat genders which were removed for being unserious meme options, (unlike the deer and fairy options.)
What does being a fae have to do with gender? I am not saying you can't "be" a fairy person, I am saying there shouldn't be an expectation for anyone else to go along with it. The "nounself" pronouns are very different from the novel non-gendered pronouns without any inherent meaning. I don't think it's being transphobic to not want to call by people by "pronouns" that suggest they are deer or fairies or cats or whatever else. I don't see what it has to do with gender identity, at that point we are talking about otherkin identity or something else.
Fae is an existing word in the form of a noun (meaning fairy folk) and adjective (meaning magical, fairy-like) that someone decided to start using as a pronoun, and other people liked it also decided to use it. It's pretty clear from the history of its usage as a pronoun that the intent was to express a fairy identity.
Here is a post from 2013 asserting an origin:
https://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/post/66441169269/so-i-saw-the-faefaerfaersfaerself-pronouns-and/amp
It is literally a pronoun invented on the spot by my (white, dfab, technically nonbinary although fae does not identify as trans*) friend who’s gender is somewhere between sidhe and angel, fae made it to replace faer previous pronouns of “this one/that one” and alternating between “he” and “she”.
All of these nounself pronouns, as far as I can tell, are intended to express the identity of the original word's meaning, as far as I can tell. What does any of this have to do with gender?
I understand nonbinary genders, and they are entirely valid, I accept them 100%. I am saying that fairy (or sidhe or angel) is not a nonbinary gender, it's a different kind of (non-human) entity. A different (fantasy) species. I also don't think deer is a gender, it's a different species. I don't see why this is controversial to say. Can you identify with or as these other kinds of beings? Sure, absolutely, knock yourself out, it's cool. But what does it have to do with gender or transgender?
People have the right to choose anything for any reason. But other people do not have to go along with what you want them to do. If people are misgendering you, then that is transphobic and should be condemned. If people are refusing to say you are a fairy or a deer or some other kind of being, that has nothing to do with gender. You can choose to identify that way, and choose to have pronouns that other people may agree to use. But random people should be expected to go along with the Otherkin nounself neopronouns, and if they don't, it's not transphobia.
Not if they are insisting I use a pronoun unrelated to comporting with their gender identity. Say somsone am being Otherkin-phobic because they won't use a fairy pronoun, that would be reasonable.
I am not defining anything about you are what you believe about yourself. I am saying people should not be expected to call you by a nounself neopronoun indicating that you are a fairy.
And if someone chooses not to acknowledge your fairy nature by using such a pronoun, they are not being transphobic.Not if you are trying to shoehorn some other meaning into pronouns, such as being a different species or a mythological creature! That has nothing to do with being trans or nonbinary.
You can repeat that over and over again, but being nonbinary doesn't mean people have to call you a fae, or they are being a transphobe. Identifying as fairy has nothing to do with gender, because fairies themselves have genders! Just like the deer. There are genders of deer i.e. doe vs. stag. So it seems to me it's about shoehorning some non-gender-related identity into "gender" to piggyback it onto the trans issue, and to insist people call you are these other kinds of being. (And if they don't you can accuse them of transphobia.)
Welcome to us owning the platform, we can make unilateral calls like this.
Feels good man. I'm so glad to be off reddit and be able to do extra stuff like this to accommodate our comrades. Really appreciate the work the staff does around here.
The cat thing is the funniest thing I've ever seen. I would love to be in the room where the fbi agent assigned to this site explains this to his or her or their's superiors.
I wonder if FBI agents monitoring sites like these ever get radicalized.
I raised a bit too many concerns in c/userunion yesterday, and I'm sorry for that.
One thread involved a comment removal, where I hand-wrung over the use of the term "concern trolling" in the removal message.
That user was eventually banned from c/transenby_liberation. I have removed that thread, and I'm sorry for for any distress that I caused.
I really appreciate the check you are providing on the mods. I hope that more users take your example in the future. We all make mistakes and owning/learning from them is important.
I really, truly appreciate this self-crit. we could all learn from this example.
we also encouraged users to manually set their pronoun tags
For the record, this was the text that transcomrade69 posted. It comes off as extremely condescending, and it probably resulted in 95% of the problems. If the mod had just asked nicely, there wouldn't have been an issue
For the libs shouting “but muh anonymity”, you should have zero issue using the “any pronoun” tag as you will be addressed with any pronouns regardless of whether or not you have it set. The point of having them sitewide is for everyone to use them to normalize explicitly stating one’s pronouns as a means of not forcing trans people to request to be addressed with basic respect. The amount of pushback on a meaningful step toward trans inclusivity in this community is pretty fucking disheartening, not gonna lie.
Actually the post was a wakeup call for me. I simply never set my pronouns before because I'm a guy and didn't think I needed visibility. I did not understand that it helps to normalize stating one's pronouns.
I was being a lib, and I appreciate being called on it. Thanks transcomrade69.
love the "dirtbags" getting annoyed because a mod was kinda condescending lmao
Imagine joining a website based on an ideal explicitly centered on helping disadvantaged, vunerable, and oppressed people, then getting annoyed and pissy when the website starts to take steps to make sure those people feel welcome and safe
Couldn't be me
too many people on here are THIS close to unironic complaining about blue haired feminists
Condescension from a person in a position of power (a mod) is a bit different than condescension from some random poster. That's not to say mods or anyone else in a position of power can never make jokes -- it's more that nailing the right amount and type of humor for that type of position is hard.
I was in that thread pretty early, I don't think it was. TC69 marked 2 edits in the post, the part I quoted was not under those 2 markings. I could be wrong, and it doesn't really matter anyway
This is good and cool
I'd like to add that if ANYONE has a problem with someone harassing you feel free to message me or any of the other mods on the site. We are here to make the site a better place, we aint some dipshit reddit admins trying to appease our corporate overlords. The only way this place thrives is if we root out any toxicity, if we want Chacha to be THE leftist space we need to work together and vocalize any concerns we have of the community.
Again, please feel free to PM me or any other mod on the site if you have any concerns. I am terminally online and typically quick to respond (unless im asleep)
If we have not added your preferred pronoun yet please feel free to leave a message here.
Left is best!
I feel like this website is substantially different from the subreddit in lots of ways I don't like. Feels like it's slowly morphing into Every Other Leftist Community on the internet, so I guess I should savor my insults while we still have them? I dunno, I'm just complaining into the void.
And before anyone asks I'm trans, I have no problem with neopronouns, but I do have a problem with pronouns being opt-out instead of opt-in. I just don't like the trajectory this website seems to be going in, but I'm also not really sure why I'm bothering to post this because the mods, as with all active mods on all forums, pretty clearly don't really care about the opinions of people who don't already agree with them.
The main difference is that it's smaller and still figuring stuff out, the old chapo sub had a long time for gradual growth, and a lot of similar dramas and struggle sessions throughout its life.
I'm honestly confused at how out of proportion this has become, the site wasn't made by a few nasty mods who don't listen, it's been since the beginning a community thing and there's constant dialogue and feedback. I'm not really sure what else they're supposed to do given that the pronouns and everything around it was something that was asked and strongly pushed for since the beginning and they've just tried to carefully integrate stuff in response to the feedback. In some ways i've seen a lot of people who not long ago were saying the opposite, that the progress/response on the pronouns thing was too slow.
Idk, the "don't care about the opinions of people who don't already agree with them" seems extremely unfair to me given the constant dialogue and self-crit of the devs/admins/mods. I don't know what your experience has been but it seems in bad faith.
Maybe I'm legitimately in the minority here and just don't wanna admit it, I dunno. I'm just saying my piece, and clearly some people agree with me. Maybe most don't, I don't really know.
No that's good, your piece is valuable as well. And I do think that a lot of the issue is not the actual substance but small details in how it was communicated which kinda helped it spiral into struggle session, like a lot of people here are saying, but I have a harder time on the "mods don't listen" thing since from what I've seen the whole time since this site was first launched, is a constant attempt at listening/feedback and trying to do/be better. Obviously everyone's experience is different, and I don't think there's a "perfect" solution to this whole opt-in/opt-out stuff, but It seems like the result of this is probably the best compromise and a better understanding of the topic for many. Path to growth for both a lot of users and the dev/mod team, imo.
Eh. This is all too online anyway, I just hope everyone here (angry or not) is having a nice day, and if you're a leftist I am still your comrade, that's not gonna change.
Aww, thank you. Good faith posting like this is why solidarity works.
Ye i'm sorry if i've been needlessly angry in other comments. This whole thing has brought out a lot of passive-aggressiveness and vitriol, and it's been tiring. Seeing it here once more made me angry again, and I don't like being angry for this kinda thing. Maybe i'm too optimistic but I honestly like this outcome. Probably the best compromise we can get for now on the pronouns, and opening up a topic that probably would have created tension anyway, so resolving that tension now is good.
Honestly what I feel is the biggest lesson here for me is that communication is, as always, a messy thing. Bad faith, passive-aggressiveness and other such things are extremely unproductive, and we're used to employ those tactics against bad actors/wreckers/chuds so everyone is used to a default defensive stance, which complicates things.
Anyway love y'all reading this.
Wow, I thought the opt-out pronouns was a great solution. Seeing this comment with so many upvotes is depressing. Pronouns are why you don't like the trajectory of this website? JFC
Agreed, this is wild. How hard is it to go into account settings and click a couple of times. "I used to be leftist, but then chapo.chat asked me to opt out of pronouns."
Thank you, you have nailed it. I came to Chapo for the dirtbag aesthetic and the leftism. I feel like this site has lost its edge. When I see posts on main about horoscopes and witchcraft, I realize that we have descended into radlib territory.
Edit: What did I say?
See I don't even care about the horoscopes and witchcraft stuff, I always thought the whole "everything I don't like is libshit" thing was stupid, and that's one thing that I'm glad seems to be going away. I'm more just talking the like.. general vibes, which I'm aware is a useless statement.
You're right. Having beatnik be the one who made this site will mean its slow slide into being not chapo, he was never the mod there that actually made it good and understood the purpose of the community.
This move is dumb and alienating to users who simply don't want to be forced into having some pronoun tag. Thinking that combats transphobia is idiocy.
I really miss the old subreddit right now. Chapo was bursting at the seams with leftist energy. In particular, what always kept me coming back was how funny it was. God there were so many amazing posts. Italian AOC, making fun of libs, bullying chuds. Chapo assumed good faith and that's what made the dirtbag aesthetic work. We gather here to make fun of libs and say that it's ok to kill slaveowners. The posting level on this site was starting to resemble the old subreddit, and then the pronoun debate happened. I came to Chapo because I was tired of walking on eggshells all of the time. On r/chapotraphouse, if I had a shit take, people made fun of me until I got better. Here, I'm worried that if I have a shit take, I'll get banned. That's the difference.
You're not going to get banned for a "shit take" and this tiny insignificant struggle sesh is not going to stop us from growing and being as active and funny as we were, for fuck's sake. The site like month's old and it's just had its first big user spike. Do you know how long it took for chapo to reach the insane level of activity it had before the ban, and how many similar issues/drama it had to go through?
The good thing about this place is that we can actually get rid of the shit we couldn't on reddit because it was reddit, and that includes being a space that's just a tiny bit nicer for trans & enby peeps, and being tougher on specifically transphobic and exclusionary shit related to that. How in any way that's incompatible with "leftist energy" or being funny is beyond me.
This is like "muh freeze peach"/"we can't say anything or we get cancelled" or stupidpol bullshit, shit take =/= transphobic/stupidly exclusionary stuff that nobody wants to fucking see, jfc.
It's very weird and depressing to see people complain about the addition of such a basic site feature...because..something something... those damn radical witchcraft transes!!
Really sucks to be reminded how much even in "leftism", people just fucking hate trans people, or don't care to analyze how it costs $0.00 to just.. ignore the new feature.
Wow this comment is modern art, and is probably one of the worst comments in this entire thread:
What always kept me coming back was how funny [the old sub] was..
We gather here to make fun of libs and say that it's okay to kill slaveowners.
and then the pronoun debate happened.
You're a "Well there's your problem" podcast fan, complaining about pronouns making his memes less funny.
You think you're walking on eggshells.. on meme sites? Reddit is way more strict, as you literally admit, they censor all kinds of leftist stuff and even current news articles that make certain entities look bad.
But because here, we are discussing pronouns, it's as bad as Reddit. Lmao.
I don't usually agree with your takes and IDK if Beatnik is the entire problem, but I do agree with this take. Definitely do not like the nu-nu-mods compared to the old-nu-mods.
I will give fair credit for the site existing at all, if thats the case. I obviosuly don't really like their moderation style, but I will 100% give them credit for the site existing. Even if it evolves into something I personally do not like, and something that's not very much like the old
straight from the gochapo, it's still good that this place exists.
He isn't the entire problem, but he's making the choices when it comes to other moderators, especially the ones that seem to revel in antagonizing users and starting shit among the people here.
That's the origin of bad choices that lead to this sort of vibe. With all of the needless immaturity and drama on the Discord, it almost perfectly filtered for the shittiest moderators who enjoyed that sort of thing, while others were bullied off of the team or kicked as the problem moderators sought to cancel them for anything slightly controversial, like they did to @storyofrachel.
Those moderators carried over here and are now going to be grandfathered in for the foreseeable future. Abuse of power is always an issue with free internet moderation, but this is somehow an enhanced version of that.
This move is not dumb, what the hell, it's literally just default "none" pronouns, you dont even have to do anything. No one is claiming that this will singlehandedly destroy transphobia. I am a living trans person. I know there is real, more important shit out there. But the fact that you take the time to complain about an overall positive feature is so gross.
I'm sorry the memes aren't as good as they used to be, please don't use that as an excuse to shit on trans people and/or stuff you perceive as related to us, wtf. Grow the fuck up.
If you have a problem with a specific mod, talk about that.
If i cant call everyone a liberal but me and have to adhere to some cabal's edicts, i have just fallen into a traditional tankie time sink
What do horoscopes and witchcraft have to do with pronouns?
Do you really see pronouns as "radlib" and the opposite of leftism?
You saw a post about something gender-y and decided to go off about those damn pagans making your website less edgy??
You're getting downvoted because you give off edgy teen vibes by this comment probably.
The dirtbag aesthetic has been made null since 2016 and replaced with r/stupidpoll
I dunno, there were a lot more memorable posters than just Neera. Though Neera was great. PraximusPrime, 7DeadlyFetishes, Rebro, PrinceKroptkin, StoryofRachel.. probably others that aren't coming to mind right now, too. For better or worse, I feel like Chapo had just as many strong personalities that people recognized.. maybe even more, honestly. I don't recognize that many posters here yet, but that might just be because it's not been around for as long. Shame most of the Old capital P Posters didn't come over, though.
I'm all for radical acceptance and shit, if I said anything yesterday that made anyone uncomfortable re wanting to be anonymous I'm sorry.
Also now that we've added these tags, can we add back the equivalent of reddit tags too because it was nice to personalize your profile back on reddit with flairs that don't further identify you in real life but still personalize things.
at some point. personally for me, right now i need to focus on either putting features upstream or separating them into different files based on what upstream wants. so it might be a bit!
