https://nitter.net/Is_Not_Brian/status/1749645809170493525
people always tell me to grow up and then end up coming to the same conclusions in adulthood that I did when I was 16
I'm starting to learn a lot of liberals could have skipped like 15 years of political development if they had just listened to punk music as a teenager like I did (also protesting the Iraq war)
Yup things continue to get significantly worse, and I’m told one of the same two things
1.) “I’m sure children who died in factories during the Industrial Revolution would agree with you”
2.) “Unfortunately that’s just how the world is. I was like you once”
I really don’t know how else to say it. Like I can acknowledge the fact that I’m privileged and want to use my privilege to try and do something about the flagrant injustices around, but that comment is usually left with a snide response as well.
I keep shouting from the fucking mountain tops that the only way to make change is to build solidarity in your local communities, but fucking DNC plants are dropped from the sky it seems telling people to invest that energy into calling their representatives and VOTING. Which has yet to do jack shit materially
And surprise surprise. The same ghoulish developers and builders keep coming in to gentrify everything in fucking sight, corporations start outsourcing factory jobs leaving hundreds unemployed, rent increases astronomically all while millions of people are fixated on an election that is effectively kayfab
When you think of it like this, the DNC is so so fucking evil. They have a robust network of organizations that they could theoretically use to make a meaningful difference in people’s lives. But of course they fucking don’t, too busy posting about how the latest ruling or whatever has made them sad.
They’re going to do such a
when trump 2.0 is elected and opine about “the state of our country” or some shit while completely ignoring their role in all of this.The children who died in factories in the 19th century did fucking agree with me we have the fucking letters and they think August Willich was a lib.
And Willich challenged Marx to a dual for not being radical enough, so that's really saying something
Everyone ships Marx/Engles but no one reads the deep lore of 1848 and ships Engles/Willich
My inner lib wants you to know that two ships can be true at the same time.
3 actually. Marx started a slanderous rumour that Willich was gay (possibly he was bi, it's hard to say) because he suspected he was making moves on Jenny.
Bring this shit back. Cornel West needs to fist fight Biden immediately
The finger on the monkey paw curls and we see Cornel West on stage with Joe Biden exchanging fist bumps as he endorses him as the real Bernie sanders progressive
lmao a second Joe Biden VP tenure after being President would be so funny
I came to those same conclusions at 16, then briefly thought teenage me was just being edgy and idealist, then very quickly realized that teenage me was right and we should in fact [redacted] every fascist cop.
yeah for real. There were a few years when I faltered, thinking huh maybe they all are right. I have been more and more vindicated as time goes on however.
I remember going through history and reading about the fall of Rome, Greece, Persia, etc and thinking to myself "it sure looks like I'm living during the decline of the US empire... Listened to Punk and Ska, and asked how "Trickle down economics" would ever work when a public corporation's sole reason for existing is to provide value for shareholders.
I also remember talking to my dad in the early 2000s about global warming and asking how any of it could ever change. He told me we'd have to vote for the right people.
Then Citizens United happened and put the nail in the coffin for all of it.
Seriously. I can't help it that I've always been ahead of the curve. More of a them problem at that point.
The key word is objectively. If you disagree, it's not a difference of opinion. You're just wrong
I mean, the guy who said that went on to ally with social democracies against real fascists. And whatever the theoretical merits, I see no evidence that calling 90%+ of the U.S. population fascists will do anything to advance any leftist cause. It certainly doesn't help grow any sort of American left-wing movement.
It really is OK to say someone's take is bad without calling them a fascist. Fascists should be shot; anyone who thinks everyone from AOC to the right needs to be shot is (in the parlance of our times) deeply unserious.
I mean, the guy who said that went on to ally with social democracies against real fascists.
social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism
moderate fascists are better than extreme fascists
no contradiction here
Fascists should be shot; anyone who thinks everyone from AOC to the right needs to be shot is (in the parlance of our times) deeply unserious.
They clearly aid and abet fascism though. You'd be a fool not to see that they're ultimately enemies of real social change and they must be deposed or else nothing good can come.
Do you want to be (arguably) correct on some theoretical point, or do you want people to listen to you? Because the vast majority of people will immediately tune out "AOC is a fascist."
Clearly it's more complex than that, and I don't think I'd be upfront about that. I think, if you talked about how there's a historical precedence for people like AOC coming into power on a wave of radicalism and just being the same old same old, and how it's an unavoidable consequence of our system, people would be more willing to hear that. And it's the same damn concept.
I get that most leftists won't consciously lead with that hot of a take. But we have it all over this public forum that libs frequently wander into, so you can tell a lot of folks who'll lead with "AOC is not a path to revolutionary change" will break out "social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism" after about two beers. And I'd say those are two very different concepts.
Then when they push back we'll give historical precedence and evidence. My experience with MLs was having them be clearly correct in a way that a lot of others weren't and then they would say wack shit like "AOC is a fascist" but I'd stick around anyway and now I understand why it's true. I think it's generally good for us to always be honest
they would say wack shit like "AOC is a fascist" but I'd stick around anyway
How much of this is survivor bias? How many people punched out at that wack shit and never came back?
Being honest is important, but so is knowing the difference between a topic you are solidly, unambiguously correct on (stuff like the Nazis pulling directly from the U.S. treatment of natives) and a theoretical point that is debatable and ultimately has no provable answer. Honesty works when someone who desperately wants to believe you're lying digs deeper and only finds more evidence that you're right. It doesn't land the same when you're talking about a topic that a skeptical reader can't prove to themselves in the same way.
That's the difference between you and I I think, I know AOC is a fascist in waiting, you don't believe so.
What is the point here? What do you think the left stands to gain by calling her a fascist?
The useful part of this discussion is "she's a dead end for any real leftist movement." Calling her a closet Nazi adds nothing and clocks as "wack shit" even to people who eventually become leftists!
We clown on Israeli officials for not realizing how unhinged they sound to people who don't already agree with them -- this is the exact same thing.
It breaks the illusion that she is an ally in any way or that the avenues she took to power can be pursued by ourselves. They cannot. We won't plan around her at all and will instead dismiss her praise and admonish her resistance; and if the time ever comes understand she'll advocate the same insane violence against us that the fascists will.
Edit: this isn't to reduce her to "just" a fascist. We don't treat her the same way we treat the proud boys. But she's a social democrat, which is the left wing of fascism and when push comes to shove she will absolutely side with capital.
It breaks the illusion
It doesn't! People ignore it as "wack shit," exactly how you did!
It's still fundamentally the truth, provable with historical precedence and her clear actions. Besides, posters like you will appear to be a calm and rational voice to my outrageous rhetoric. I think ultimately it comes out to a balance with both of these socialist perspectives given.
- It doesn't matter how right you are if you can't get anyone to listen to you.
- There is no such thing as "fundamentally the truth, provable with historical precedence" when we're discussing a political opinion.
Actually yes, the point of Marxism Leninism is that it follows Scientific Socialism, so the vast majority of things are no longer an opinion but simply a bank of knowledge that's grown over time with hypothesis and proven results, so that some issues are resolved and we need not seriously discuss them as they won't change in this mode of society (bourgeois led).
Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution. The bourgeoisie cannot retain power without such a bloc.
~
1924, nearly one hundred years ago in Concerning the International SituationHistorically this has been shown time and time again. SPD in Germany cooperating with the freikorps during the Spartacist Revolution. Italian Social Democrats cooperating with Mussolini. The failed unity against naziism of the socialists and social Democrats. Labour cooperating with the Anglo empire to liquidate those colonized, labour cooperating with the American empire to liquidate Iraqis, progressive elements in the US having dogshit foreign policy because it may lead to better outcomes here if they shut up (Bernie supporting Israel and bombing Yugoslavia to smithereens). Etc. We can simply look at the course of AOC's career and see the same things appear time and time again. Fascism isn't just Nazis, it's the entire apparatus the bourgeois state uses and will use to attempt to annihilate leftists when they present any challenge whatsoever. It's not wrong to apply these historical teachings to today's figures when the reasons for it happening haven't changed.
I also once would all read this and find it ridiculous, but frankly, the longer you spend organizing IRL and interacting with the state and other leftists, the clearer this all becomes. I've gone from an anarchist to a staunch ML because MLs are almost always correct and willing to correct themselves when they aren't (Cuba and LGBT). When I say AOC is a fascist, I know I won't convince those who haven't tried to organize IRL, but the real heads who know will know. And those who care about Palestinians being liquidated by the United States will come to this understanding as well.
Edit: the point is having a sound analysis for MLs so they can properly engage with and tear down the world's order. Figures like you can act as the milquetoast that gets others on board, whereas eventually when engaging with the reality of the world they will understand and appreciate our seemingly extreme rhetoric.
I'm aware of the concept of scientific socialism. It does not mean we can perfectly predict the future, and it certainly does not mean we can perfectly predict future actions down to an individual level (AOC's).
We could spend all day listing the differences between Germany and the USSR in the 1920s and the U.S. in the 2020s. If you want to be scientific, tell me how the predictive value of an experiment changes when you spend a century altering key inputs before running it again.
It depends, have the key inputs truly changed, or have the same incentives which cause social democrats to prop up empire and far right regimes when push comes to shove remained the same.
AOC carrying water for Nazis liquidating Palestinians
When push comes to shove, these social democrats abandon all realistic modes of progressive change and instead ask us to stay within the system. When we don't they support the system coming down on us hard; if any real revolution or change were to occur it's clear she would stand on the side of the bourgeoisie like an old fashioned uncle tom. The fundamental incentives have not changed in over one hundred years; they value staying in the master's house more than liberation.If you think you can perfectly predict the future, I don't know what to tell you.
If you think there is no significant difference between late-czarist Russia or Weimar Germany and the modern U.S., I don't know what to tell you.
There clearly is, but you'd be a fool not to see that the same incentives have not changed whatsoever for social democrats to continue aiding and abetting fascism. Has AOC even made a statement against bombing the only outside force who's taken clear and successful military action against the zionist entity? Is it only fascism when
? If we take a clear definition of fascism as a tool of the bourgeois class/liberals to forcibly cut down opposition to their rule by whatever means necessary when they're actually in genuine danger, would the attacks on Yemen not constitute utilization of a fascist machine? Is she not already carrying water for fascism? I don't mean this as hypotheticals or predicting the future; she's already doing exactly what I'm talking about and it's clear how this can and will escalate as things get worse.We're repeating the same things to each other, so this is the last comment I'll make.
It does not matter if you are right
It does not matter if you are right
It does not matter if you are right
You still have to work to get people to agree with you, and Step Zero for that is getting them to listen. They will not listen if you say AOC is a fascist, whether it's right away or a few comments in.
It's also (charitably) not a great argument because you cannot in fact prove it objectively. It is still a political opinion, because while you can learn from history, societies do not follow laws so precisely defined that you can predict their development the way you can predict how long it takes a dropped object to hit the ground.
Clearly one of us reads the other's perspective and engages while the other does not, it's up to reader interpretation which perspective is more aligned with reality. I invite you to continue discussing your ideas though, as it will give Hexbear the balanced perspective you're looking for.
I mean, the guy who said that went on to ally with social democracies against real fascists.
You understood history wrong. The European powers wanted to use Nazi Germany, Poland and Japan to destroy the USSR. Many of them had signed military and economic cooperation agreements with Nazi Germany. The British literally just signed the Dusseldorf Agreement for the cooperation between British and German industries in March 1939, and the Munich Agreement before that with the British, France, Italy and Germany in 1938.
It was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, engineered by the Soviet diplomatic team and supposedly without Hitler’s involvement, at the last minute that saved the day. It drove a wedge between Germany and Poland (who had just shared Czechoslovakia together), forcing Germany to invade Poland, and in turn forcing France and the Great Britain to declare war on Germany. The entire Japanese cabinet resigned over the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and backed down from interfering with the Soviets. Like, why do you think the Japanese government would resign over a pact signed by two foreign countries?
The European “social democracies” wanted the Soviet Union dead. They wanted to destroy communism. They simply did not expect to be outplayed at the last minute when the Soviets managed to turn Nazi Germany against the Europeans themselves.
The European “social democracies” wanted the Soviet Union dead.
Agreed -- and Stalin would go on to ally with those exact same countries.
Stalin was often foolish and would have done well listening to more of zhukovs wisdom.
We liberated Europe from fascism, but they will never forgive us for it
I see no evidence that calling 90%+ of the U.S. population fascists will do anything to advance any leftist cause. It certainly doesn't help grow any sort of American left-wing movement.
Neither does allowing people to believe that fake shills like AOC represent any kind of actual leftist movement. At this point, this type of politician is an active hinderence to advancing any real left politics, with the exception of their actions and stances disillusioning people.
I don't disagree. My point is we can get all that across without flattening it to "AOC is a fascist," which sounds like crank shit to everyone who is not already a communist.
This is a communist forum
if you can't quote Stalin here then where?If libs are checking this out then good. Hopefully they'll learn something. If not then they'll engage with something else until they're ready. This really isn't a space where we should be concerned with optics and what libs might think of they're even looking to learn
Quote Stalin all you want, but his word isn't gospel, especially when he himself later allied with nations that would (at best) fall under his "moderate wing of fascism" umbrella. The CPC's line on Stalin is something like 70% good, 30% bad, so there's plenty of room for disagreement.
I'm not overly concerned with optics on this site, but what we meme about here pops up elsewhere, and if we want people to agree with us we do have to put thought into how to present our ideas.
Once again you misquote “social fascist” as “fascist” despite being corrected on this very error in another conversation. You are here in bad faith. Social fascist is a specific thing.
Fascists shouldn’t be shot, they should be re-educated. Only those who engage in crimes should be shot. I explained this to you and you still regress back to your liberal baseline
Good faith is phrasing your side of a disagreement as "I corrected you"
It’s repeating the same objectively incorrect argument over and over, changing the definitions of terms to twist it into what you want. Social fascism is not just simply “fascism”. This is a fact that you ignore. All fascists don’t deserve to be shot, not even the most hardline Stalinists shot every single fascist - they re-educated them if possible
You refuse to use the accepted definition of social fascists among communists and instead jump to a different term. Even when you know you shouldn’t and have been corrected on this leap, you do it again and again because you are a Liberal incapable of processing new information
I don't think that he is truely here in bad faith, but they do seem to get hung up about optics for a wide general audience over things we say on a communist forum for reasons i don't understand. I argued with him before about how he took some issue with how we use the word cracker here, and it was more or less the same thing as this.
You know what, i ending up argueing more with them and you're right lol.
They refuse to accept what the quote actually means, but we're all "cranks" and "too online" for understanding it. Just total liberal bullshit.
Some people may think I go to hard but I’m quite good at smelling these people out
There's such a thing as knowing your audience. If you want to get your message across you have to do it differently to different people. Stating that social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism should only be done to an audience that already knows what fascism and social democracy is, such as here on this forum.
This doesn't mean that it is not true though, it just means that if you were to say those exact words to a general audience they would believe you were some crank who thought AOC was itching to put on an armband and do the goose-step. A more general audience would be more perceptive to hearing about how the system corrupts even the most well-meaning individuals, how politicians all end up doing the same shit etc.
This is a public forum that's federated with plenty of non-leftist instances, and that's well known to even more non-leftist instances we aren't federated with. We have occasional efforts to direct more people back here, including lifeboat comms for reddit communities. There are even more ties to the much larger reddit through shared users and the whole history of the CTH sub.
We're not speaking to the most general of audiences, but there is a benefit to not looking like cranks. This isn't even a particularly good hot take to cling to, as Stalin himself eventually allied with social democracies against fascists.
I wouldn't be too worried about what the imagined liberals in the walls might think. There can't be too many of them and bad faith actors will always be able to find something and take it out of context. And if you can't speak freely as a communist on a communist niche forum where can you?
Stalin, unlike any of the morally pure western leftists, actually held power and had to defend it and he did so successfully. It's not like aligning the USSR with "moderate" imperialist nations didn't have it's downsides but the alternative was to be overrun and slaughtered by the more radical fascists.
A pragmatic alliance made for lack of better alternatives doesn't change the analysis of the nature of social democracy. They serve the same master as the fascists. Where the social democrats wants to preserve capitalism by bribing a select labour aristocracy into complementary the fascists use more direct violence but ultimately they will both tend to side with capital if it's rule is threatened.
the imagined liberals in the walls
How are they imagined? They comment here regularly. Our threads show up in their feeds. Their threads show up on ours, and we comment on them. We talk to mods of reddit communities looking to move somewhere better. None of this is hypothetical.
I've made the the exact "Stalin actually held power and had to defend it against hostile empires and genocidal fascists" argument online and in person many times. From those conversations I've learned that calling (for instance) FDR and everyone to his right (including all modern Democrats) "moderate fascists" comes across as crank shit, and most people tune out when they hear crank shit. Even people who stick it out and eventually become leftists clock it as crank shit! It doesn't work, so why are we so dug in on it? (My guess: a mix of contrarianism and residual "he was a Great Man so his word is infallible" thinking.) It's not even a good point to go to the mat on; see below.
pragmatic alliance made for lack of better alternatives
This is "if 99% Hitler and 100% Hitler are on the ballot, you should pragmatically vote for 99% Hitler." We rightly point out the problems with this logic when libs tell it to us. There are two ways to resolve this contradiction:
- Argue that WWII was a more dire situation than we face today, so more compromises were necessary. This has some merit, but is undermined by the USSR seeking anti-Nazi alliances well before the war and seeking continued peace with the Allies in its immediate aftermath. It's further undermined by how bad the Allies were (the "99% Hitler" countries' genocides were the blueprint for the Holocaust, and they had recently invaded the USSR), and how dire the situation is today (climate change is on track to be more destructive than WWII).
- Argue that Stalin was not infallible, and got some things wrong, and that his "moderate wing of fascism" take was not his best work. Argue that as bad as social democracies are, there is some meaningful difference between them and Nazis (what Stalin actually did).
The second approach is at least as theoretically sound as the first, and it does not cause most people to think "oh I'm dealing with a crank, I can disregard."
The quote that social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism, doesn't mean the same thing as saying social democrats are fascist. The quote acknowledges the subjective difference, the fact that social democrats view themselves differently. What the quote neans is that, despite this subjective difference, despite the intentions of social democrats, their efforts ultimately only serve to help and enable fascism, because it accepts capital and the liberal democratic framework.
Repeating the quote now, today, is not the same thing as saying AOC is a fascist. You are misunderstanding the quote. And are further misunderstanding the history, and using a misunderstanding of that history to justify your misunderstanding of the quote
I get that you care about optics on this site and think that it should be the same as irl organizing. I don't agree with that, but if that's your point, okay. I can accept that's what you think and you care about it even if i don't. But i want to point out how you are misinterpreting the quote. Not because i think Stalin is a "great man" or "infallible", and not because I'm "contrarian," but because i think the quote is right, and important for communists or peoole who want to be on an actual left to understand. If you want our optics held to the same standard as irl organizing, then i insist we hold our education to the same standard. Because if we're organizing, it should be with people that are capable of understanding this quote - otherwise we'll end up organized with the kind of people this quote refers to who will betray and destroy any real left efforts
Calling someone a moderate fascists is calling them a fascist the same way calling someone a moderate Democrat is calling them a Democrat. We don't make any real distinction when we add "moderate" ("if the time ever comes understand she'll advocate the same insane violence against us that the fascists will"), people don't hear a distinction, and it's ridiculous to try and retroactively try and create some thin theoretical difference when this is pointed out.
The only reason people (sometimes) add the "moderate" modifier is they're memeing about a Stalin quote they haven't actually interrogated, and it seems most people haven't even read:
Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism... They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution.
We can't say "if you sit down at a table with fascists you're a fascist" all day then pretend "moderate fascist, fascism's twin" means "not fascist."
think that it should be the same as irl organizing
I never said anything like this. I said this place is useful for moving people left, and that it will be less useful for that if we get so up our own online asses that we can't tell when we're saying crank shit that doesn't even have a good theoretical basis.
Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism... They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution.
Even with the full quote you still misunderstand it. I'm not sure how you can look at that and not see hiw what i just told you is correct.
We can't say "if you sit down at a table with fascists you're a fascist" all day then pretend "moderate fascist, fascism's twin" means "not fascist."
They are "Twins" because they were "born" at the same time from the same material conditions. He's not using twin to mean "identical." They aren't identical, but they both exist to serve capital and defebd it from proletarian revolution. That's why social democracy is "objectively tge moderate wing if fascism." This is not saying "AOC us a fascist" its not even saying "AOC is a moderate fascist." Its saying that social democracy serves the same purpose. Conflating it with the "sit down with fascists..." saying is just you running with your misinterpretation and justifing yourself.
it's ridiculous to try and retroactively try and create some thin theoretical difference when this is pointed out.
I'm not doing anything retroactively. I'm just telling you what Stalin meant when he wrote it, and what we mean when we say it. Once again you're misinterpreting it and calling us cranks based on your misinterpretation
I never said anything like this. I said this place is useful for moving people left, and that it will be less useful for that if we get so up our own online asses that we can't tell when we're saying crank shit that doesn't even have a good theoretical basis.
This isn't crank shit. Your misinterpretation definitely is though. And you've been corrected on this multiple times it sounds like, and you really want to die on this hill over some kind of optics argument that we're "cranks" when the crank opinion your argueing against is just your own misinterpretation.
I'm sorry if you think the niche communist internst forum is "too online" if we read Stalin, understand him, and quote him about things he was correct about.
I'm just telling you what Stalin meant when he wrote it
You aren't a mind reader and you aren't some authority on the subject. We are both reading the same 100-year-old text and coming to different conclusions. I am not misinterpreting, you are not correcting, and the condescension is obnoxious.
My point from the beginning is that when people hear "XYZ is a moderate fascist," they interpret that to mean "XYZ is basically a fascist, even if this person thinks some other fascist is worse." No amount of quoting Stalin and claiming to know What He Truly Meant will change that this is what people hear.
Okay, you're not engaging in anything approaching good faith on this issue with me or anyone else here.
We are both reading the same 100-year-old text and coming to different conclusions.
Except your conclusion is a willful misunderstanding. I am correcting, because you are wrong. I'm not condescending. I'm talking to like an adult and an equal. Its okay to be wrong about something. Ive been generous by using the term misinterpretation because the text is so clear its not even open fir interpretation. I've gone out of my way to not be condescending despite your choice to mischaracterise the incredibly blatant text. your inability to engage in good faith is not only obnoxious but tedious.
My point from the beginning is that when people hear "XYZ is a moderate fascist," they interpret that to mean "XYZ is basically a fascist, even if this person thinks some other fascist is worse." No amount of quoting Stalin and claiming to know What He Truly Meant will change that this is what people hear.
I'm not presenting what I'm saying as "What he truly meant" as some sort of divination. I'm basically just repeating what the literal text said because it makes its point extremely clearly. That's why I'm even telling you your misunderstanding it and saying that I'm correcting you because its such a clear statement that its not even open to interpretation. Its not cryptic in the slightest, yet you choose to argue over it, and need to paint it like I'm divining its intent like a religious text to prove your point. Bad faith bullshit on your part, and for no reason.
Yeah, your point is just some dumb optics shit that has nothing to do with the quote. But we're all just cranks who are too online to see the truth lol.
I'm not talking with you anymore about this, because this is pointless and tedious. We're all just "too online" and you're the one true leftist. Congratulations
I'm talking to [you] like an adult and an equal.
Lmao if you spoke to a stranger like this -- "you keep misinterpreting this," "you've now been corrected a few times," -- they'd either walk away or tell you to fuck off.
your point is just some dumb optics shit
Another sign of engaging in good faith -- "your point is dumb shit, why can't we talk about my point instead"!
Tell me more, O Master of Discourse!
I made the mistake of arguing with them, when this is, objectively, the best response
Should and Would are diffrent. It would fix a good part of the world's problems.
I always said it, but I never understood it till I watched Bernie’s stance on Gaza in real time.
"The mask of humanity fall from capital. It has to take it off to kill everyone — everything you love; all the hope and tenderness in the world. It has to take it off, just for one second. To do the deed. And then you see it. As it strangles and beats your friends to death... the sweetest, most courageous people in the world. You see the fear and power in its eyes. Then you know."
" What?"
"That the bourgeois are not human."
many people are saying this folks. The succdems - that's what i call them, i call them succdems- they're very nasty people.
I feel incredibly sad and depressed and disillusioned with Bernie, AOC and everyone else. Fuck them all. They will sell the rest of the world to the devil for a promise of some progress on the domestic front that’ll get broken anyways. And they know it’ll be broken! They know it! So why not stand in solidarity?! Why make the deal at all?
I’m just done.
Especially Bernie, fucker has been in the game long enough to know better, at least AOC I could understand early on and blame it on her being naive but she's just angling to be another career dem politician like the rest of them.
It's because he understands the game, that he has been able to keep his successful political position for so long, I'm sure AOC wants a long mainstream political career like Sanders. I always like to compare Sanders to Corbyn, they destroyed Corbyn's political career, and we all know the big difference between Corbyn and Sanders.
we all know the big difference between Corbyn and Sanders.
Length?
she's just angling to be another career dem politician like the rest of them.
Her 6 months as a bartender was stolen valor. She's no different than Mayo Pete doing his photo op tour in Afghanistan, except she's way better at politics than him
They are politicians in the Democratic Party. Expecting more from them is just setting yourself up for disappointment
AOC is literally just doing what the unions want her to
Not to discredit those based 17 year olds but 9/10 you can bet on a yankee being a fascist and end up correct, it's on them to prove otherwise.
I do in fact have to hand it to him: if more libs could admit when they were wrong like this,, they might not be libs for long, and we wouldn't have to keep clowning on them.
They will say shit like this and upvote Lenin memes and then denounce Hamas and vote for Social Democrats
also gotta love the thinly veiled insult, because someone who likes stalin must obviously be insane!
You are 100% right and i agree with you. When i read the tweet, i mostly felt positive about a lib getting properly disillusioned and admitting it simce that's a beautiful fitst step to getting to the other side of western propoganda.
At the same time, i feel what comrade bazingabrain is saying in my bones lol. Its frustrating living in the west and being ML, as you acknowledge. I think its pretty fair to blow off some of thst steam here. But you're right, we can't just hate all the average people, who hage no power, around us, just for our own sanity if no other reason
Acting like this person thinks Stalin wrote anything
Maybe AOC doesn’t mind that Gaza getting flattened.
Maybe she reads settler the same way as Janet yellen reads Das kapital
Maybe she knows that Biden losing would only result in worse deviation for Gaza.
"You have no real choice in US but to vote for genocide"
yes, thank you for this searing critique of electoralism that everyone here is already aware of
The two aren't equal. In our two party system, a vote for Biden is a vote against Trump. Sometimes the best option you have on a ballot is harm reduction, you can't expect voting to fix everything. We need to organize outside electorialism, but voting is still an essential task in slowing down fascism.
In our two party system, a vote for Biden is a vote against Trump.
Sounds like a totally dogshit system we shouldn't lend credibility to if the only choices are unlimited genocide or allegedly slightly more genocide
Fascism is here. You live in a fascist country under fascism. Enjoy exercising your right to rubber stamp genocide
"I, John Brown, am now quite certain, that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood."
Notice how the greatest American of all time wasn't going around pleading for votes. Justice doesn't come from a ballot box.
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun
A vote for 98% Hitler is a vote against 100% Hitler
You can't "slow down fascism" by voting, fascism arrives on its own timeline based on the falling rate of profit. The capitalists don't care who is in charge, they own both parties - when the time comes that fascism is necessary to beat down the workers and keep up profits, it will spring up like a flame regardless of whether the drapes in the White House are blue or red.
Really Adolf Hitler wasnt that bad when you compare him to 125% Hitler. Regular 100% Hitler is the only sensible choice when 125% Hitler is on the ballot
you can't expect voting to fix everything.
Curious how you want me to vote for the baby killer so much
If we occasionally elect the greater of two evils and then occasionally the lesser of two evils, which direction are we ultimately headed in?
C'mon, man. I argued just yesterday for keeping federation with lemmee. Don't make a fool out of me.
Lesser evilism still results in an evil society in the end. We will not support genocide Joe there’s literally nothing you can type or say that will ever change that.
If you think the goal is "slowing down" fascism, then you are a fascists best friend. You prostrate yourself before fascism and give up any leverage again and again. You are less the useless
If Trump was in office at least there'd be one side of the aisle openly denouncing this genocide right now but they're not at the moment because it's not politically convenient for them. That tells me all I need to know about the Democratic party. All of their values are conditional and paper thin. Behind the rhetoric they really stand for all the same stuff the Republicans do.
We sure harm reduced the fuck out of abortion rights, didn't we?
your "democracy" is a sham and here's why
also: fuck you genocide apologist
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
We've had the largest investment in renewable energy in our nations history, investment in infrastructure, a reduction in inflation, economic growth for the bottom 20%. His administration has protected access to contraceptives and abortion medications, expanded protections for trans people, and improved the immigration process.
If you think foreign policy was better under trump you're delusional. Perfect is the enemy of good, we don't need to love Biden to understand how keeping trump out of power protects millions of vulnerable people.
"Investment in renewable energy" is meaningless. What that means is private companies get tax break and investment incentives. And that means people making startups, getting government funding for the initial investment, and then pocketing the money through the extraction of surplus value from its workers. You start a business for free, pay less in taxes, and that's it. A business that sells solar panels, a business that's trying to make carbon capture profitable (read: it's not), a business painting rooftops white. These are all ultimately meaningless things that don't do anything to address the problem of climate change. The solution is to string up oil executives on the National Mall and nationalize the industry. Then to stop pulling the shit out of the ground.
Investment in infrastructure basically goes the same way. Incentivize people starting construction companies, get contracts with DOT, hire immigrants and undocumented workers, extract their surplus value while painting crumbling bridges and asphalting roads in rich neighborhoods.
The reduction in inflation was The Fed which is largely separated from The Executive unless republicans are in the white house. They actually know how to put pressure on people. If Trump was still there, we would see a reduction in the acceleration of inflation as well. Please note that inflation has not actually been reduced, the rate at which inflation grows has come down.
There has been no growth for the bottom 20%. They simply stopped measuring most of those people and the rest have either died of covid or been pulled up on the spreadsheets by the wealthy getting wealthier.
His administration just gave up on abortion because they want moderate Republicans instead of radical feminists. And they haven't protected shit. Republicans will take away contraceptives if they want. Leaving it up to the states is a cop-out.
He sure as shit hasn't improved the immigration process.
Biden has kill millions of vulnerable people. We're not talking about being perfect. We're talking about failing to do even the most minute tiny bit of anything about these problems outside of "let private companies do it" and "states rights."
If you think Biden is holding back fascism you're a fucking moron.
Reminder that the nubers for 2022 from BloombergNEF have China spending ($546 billion) nearly 4x as much as the USA on green energy investment.
huh, I guess building the wall & detaining and rejecting asylum seekers against international law counts as "immigration improvement" for liberals.
Literally just whatever Biden is doing is good.
Kind of how he's like the most pro environment of all time and if you point out he opened up oil drilling to the point were producing more oil than any country ever younget a lecture about how he had to do that and it doesn't change the fact he's super good on the environment.
Kindnof like how he's the most pro labor president that literally took executive action to kill a strike.
Our most environmental president since Nixon
fucking Tricky-Dick Nixon was more liberal than every president I've ever lived through
Liberals love to say this buy Nixon started the clean air and clean water acts because several American rivers were frequently catching on fire because they were so full of chemicals.
He wasn't trying to protect the environment he was trying to stop disgruntled cleavlanders from fire bombing his home.
That sounds like a full-assed solution to a problem, even if it's for the "wrong" reason. Today's liberals can barely manage a quarter-ass
Yea it's just frustrating when people try to whitewash Nixon by saying he cared about the environment when really it was political expediency.
That and nowadays chuds are against the clean air and water act and there argument is literally "because china" still clinging to the 16l5 year old talking point about China still being the worst polluter in the world (they suddenly don't understand the concept of per caputa) while also ignoring the fact China is literally doing victory laps around us on renewables
They just about cleaned up burning fucking coal. Lightyears in decades.
Yup they're literally reinventing their entire civilization around clean energy faster than American dipshits can update their talking points.
Don't worry I'm sure in a couple years they will have only made themselves the most energy indpendant country in the world as an act of aggression, even though environmental activists have been screaming at America how that's a no brainer for decades.
I mean why would a nation want to stop contributing to fossil fuels while also making themselves less dependant on other countries and revitalizing their manufacturing sector at the same time to sell that emerging technology to other countries who want to be energy dependant.
Not like that policy would have literally solved all the problems oh idk say... Germany is facing right now.
Perfect is the enemy of good
What is the acceptable number of Palestinian children for Israel to murder? 100k? 500k? 1m? Do you have any shame at all in going out of your way to defend ethnic cleansing????
I second this. Give me the number. How many dead Palestinians is good enough for you liberal fucks? Count the corpses and then tell me that wanting this to stop is "perfect" and not just basic humanity.
He actually did none of those things.
cw
::: Enjoy voting for your baby killing war criminal
Show
Why did he let my student loan payments restart? I would prefer to keep my money.
I was going to vote for Biden but now I won't because you acted with such brutal incivility. This is the most important election of our lives; democracy itself is on the ballot and you are turning people away from the polls before they've even opened. You are handing Trump the keys to the White House; you are ushering in the dark tide of fascism. Enjoy the next election, you have made it our last.
"I have to support the guy doing the current genocide in case the other guy does a worse genocide."
Trump assassinated Soleimani and moved the embassy to Jerusalem; he's said he'd reject humanitarian pauses and increase hostilities with Iran. I agree Biden should work to cut funding to Israel, but at least he's been pushing for water access and electricity for Gaza, for medical care and humanitarian corridors; as bad as it is now, trump would make it staggeringly worse.
at least he's been pushing for water access and electricity for Gaza, for medical care and humanitarian corridors
I want to make this crystal clear: NO HE HASN'T
Every word he's ever said on the matter in public is a lie, he has given the Israelis EVERYTHING they've asked for unconditionally, while making occasional polite requests that they can completely ignore with no consequences. He is an absolutely committed Zionist and his preferred solution is for the Palestinians to leave or die. Literally the only further thing Trump could do is officially send in the US military to do ethnic cleansing in Gaza, rather than just doing it unofficially as Biden has.
Honestly getting US troops on the ground might end the genocide fastest. I feel like a few quality vids of🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻on US soldiers might turn chuds against Israel.
I mean probably not but I'm an optimist.
If people like this saw ACTUAL political pressure exerted for a good cause, they'd dismiss it as "aUtHoRiTaRiAnIsM" or some bullshit. It seems like they think any actual political power being wielded is only valid if it stymies progress
but at least he's been pushing for water access and electricity for Gaza
No the fuck he hasn't. Using what as leverage? Don't you know lip service when you see it? Biden is the biggest zionist ideologue in the entire party. Watch his floor speeches back when he was bald. He's more bloodthirsty than 3/4 of Likud.
I'm not saying Trump is better, but the only difference you'd see is what flag gets painted on the American made and American paid for bomb.
at least he's been pushing for water access and electricity for Gaza, for medical care and humanitarian corridors; as bad as it is now, trump would make it staggeringly worse.
You are deeply unserious.
Biden is literally repeatedly lying to spread isreals bullshit justifications of everything they're doing.
How many more times is he going to talk about that video of beheaded babies everybody else agrees he deffinitly didn't see because it doesn't exist.
but at least he's been pushing for water access and electricity for Gaza, for medical care and humanitarian corridors
Those are just words with no meaning. The reality of the matter is that there are lawsuits being prepared against the US and UK for being complicit in the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. Biden's administration is complicit in genocide.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/south-african-lawyers-preparing-lawsuit-against-us-uk-for-complicity-in-israels-war-crimes-in-gaza/3109201#
Biden wanted the embassy moved for DECADES. And how are you stupid enough to think Biden is doing anything to even "push" for water and electricity in Gaza? He is pushing through more arms to the fucking Israelis. Stop being coy you genocider
humanitarian corridors
"Rest assured, we are working hand-in-hand with the German Reich to create humanitarian corridors for the safe and secure passage of Jews and other, uh, 'particular groups' to Eastern Europe."
we’re not going to do a damn thing other than protect Israel in the process. Not a single thing.
- Biden when asked if there would be any conditions on support for Isreal
Until one of you fucking liberals can explain to me what is worse than "unlimited unconditional support" you can stop trying to make this argument
The only difference is of a republican was president every elected Democrat would have a Palestinian flag in their profile, when it's a Democrat you just get the president saying anybody who says they support Palestine is actually just a Trump supporter (literally in the last 24 hours)
This is already the worst devastation in the history of Gaza, not being able to criticize that means she's a careerist hack that is just waiting for her marching orders. The new Pelosi
Didn't you hear Trump's going to nuke Gaza instead of doing what Biden is currently doing, which is bypassing Congress to give Israel weapons while openly calling every protestor a MAGA idiot
It would be the exact same, the democrats dont have a real political project thats why theres no serious pushback on anything real. Someone else telling them no and accepting that is the true metric of their political agenda not what they say can do.
Right, Trump would probably bypass Congress to send aid to Israel, continue to veto UN resolutions demanding a ceasefire, call peace protestors names, and actually be sued by advocacy groups openly accusing him of genocide.
Oh wait.
Your guy's a fucking loser who should be strung up too.
There is a genocide going on in Gaza right now, tens of thousands of women and children have been killed by American made bombs that Biden has supplied to Israel by bypassing congressional approval. The Biden administration is complicit in genocide.
You do realize if we keep following this logic forever the DNC basically loses any incentive to improve at all, as long as they remain even slightly better than the GOP they will keep winning. So at what point do we say "enough is enough" and draw a line where we won't support them even if the other option is worse? Does that line not exist? If it doesn't does that mean we're trapped in this cycle forever? What's the long term plan here? Trump isn't going to turn into dust if he loses this election, even if he did his supporters would just find a new cult leader, so are we are just eternally supporting awful liberals forever to keep the super awful republicans out of power?
the DNC basically loses any incentive to improve at all, as long as they remain even slightly better than the GOP they will keep winning
This already happened before even the oldest of us were even voting age. The Vote Blue No Matter Who crowd is only accelerating the DNC rightward shift to unprecedented levels
If you do not like the current state of affairs, do something about it. Get help find and recruit candidates that represent you and perhaps run for office yourself. Local government is where it all starts.
The next Bernie Sanders does NOT magically pop up out of nowhere. The future generations need to step up and do so in a significant manor. Be that change you want yourself. Otherwise let the downward spiral happen and just live with your choice to not get involved personally.
The next Bernie Sanders does NOT magically pop up out of nowhere.
Hahaha, Bern was such a pathetic let down and even he was too left for the DNC. Fuck the party.
So you are happy to let the evil win? You get to have what you are willing to do. DO something to make the change. Become the Better Bernie Sanders yourself. Change something for the better just don't waste your time and everyone else's time pissing and moaning about something.
Evil has already won and we’re on our own. Nobody here expects help from the DNC, not even meaningful harm mitigation. The way forward for us is local organising and building militant grass roots resistance to the two headed fascist party.
Trump never started a regional war and genocide, just sayin’
That’s how shit your boy is, he’s a genocidal maniac who is more unstable and dangerous than Trump
I would like to thank you for making this doodoo ass post. Through the dunking on you my comrades have done, curious onlookers will be informed and educated to the evils of the american empire. You have my (very critical) support, please continue shitting out doodoo ass posts
you can in fact improve both of those things.. getting further away from 17 is a good thing imo
Oh wow who woulda thought the immortal science was, you know, immortal.
Election years are always good for stoking the fire in my soul.
RETVRN
What would happen if capital succeeded in smashing the Republic of Soviets? There would set in an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat, the positions of international communism would be lost.
I'll leave you in peace
indeed 
stop,stop! they're already dead!
