Old Map for reference

If you have any useful resource links please tag me in a comment with the link:

Examples of racism/euro-centrism during the Russia-Ukraine conflict

Add to this if you can, thank you.

Links

Time/Map: https://time.is/Ukraine

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ukraine/@49.1162725,31.7993839,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x40d1d9c154700e8f:0x1068488f64010!8m2!3d48.379433!4d31.1655799?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1B1PLMhbHmG1aJ2-QNxHY1TksI6HlNhqF&ll=48.60777942568106%2C36.4496511633501&z=7

Leftist discussion threads:

https://hexbear.net/post/177324

https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/t03foy/genzedong_russiaukraine_master_discussion_thread/ :kitty-cri-texas:

https://lemmygrad.ml/

Twitter military updaters:

https://nitter.42l.fr/RWApodcast

https://nitter.net/ASBMilitary :kitty-cri:

https://nitter.net/Militarylandnet

https://nitter.net/MihajlovicMike

https://nitter.net/KofmanMichael

https://nitter.net/TadeuszGiczan/status/1498673348183744518

https://www.youtube.com/c/DefensePoliticsAsia/videos

obvious disclaimers about taking all of them with tonnes of salt etc

Global South Perspective: https://nitter.net/kiranopal_/status/1498723206496145413

Better war/propaganda analysis:

https://www.understandingwar.org

https://www.moonofalabama.org/

News updates:

https://www.cgtn.com/special/UkraineCrisis.html

Live: https://www.cgtn.com/special/Live-update-Ukraine-Russia-border-crisis.html

YT/Video in Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/c/PatrickLancasterNewsToday/videos

https://www.youtube.com/c/RussellBentleyTe

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  • Mrtryfe [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Watching Mark Ames go from complaining about Russia derangement syndrome to a fence sitting nihilist has been something else. There's nothing more useful for the imperial core than having completely neutered geopolitical observers. How do you go from bleating about 8 years of Ukraine aggression, along with decades long NATO expansionism, and then suddenly throwing that all out the window when Russia finally responds? Putin sucks, but what are we expecting in a world where sovereignty has never been respected to begin with? Is it expected that Russia should just become another Western client state, and its industries looted again, except it will be Western corporate interests this time?

    "Geopolitics is complex, until Russia decides to invade, at which point we must look towards Russia's imperial history and Putin's ego as an explainer." Give me a fucking break.

      • Mrtryfe [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        At this point, Putin could very well have made a blunder. There's an information war on both sides, and we're left picking up the pieces. My issue is trying to figure out what the end game here was supposed to be. What is an outcome, considering current geopolitical realities, that would be satisfactory to the left?

        • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Factoring the economic warfare taking place, a lot more will have to go right for Putin than a decisive military victory in Ukraine. The jury is definitely still out on this one. The NATO shills and the vulgar anti-imperialists trying to tell you whether Putin is winning or losing based on day to day skirmishes in Ukraine are missing the forest for the trees.

          My issue is trying to figure out what the end game here was supposed to be. What is an outcome, considering current geopolitical realities, that would be satisfactory to the left?

          I'm in the same boat. While it's clear that accepting relentless NATO expansion was a dead end for Russia, it is not clear to me what they stand to gain. The only clear thing this war has accomplished is tossing the status quo out the window for good. This opens a lot of opportunities which were not open a mere two months ago, but that's all they are. Opportunities. Not guarantees or assurances. Not a solidified gain in position.

          On the left we are practically helpless observers. We can hope for US hegemony to be knocked down a level or two. We can celebrate the occasion here and there of Nazis getting what they have coming to them, but in the end we are truly powerless to direct or capitalize on this crisis. At best we can hope for fractures in the global "free market" system, but there is no workers vanguard in place in any of the states directly involved. While we should all be working towards the defeat of our national bourgeoisie, their defeat in itself is not enough to bring about the revolution.

          • Multihedra [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            I don’t want to come across as hostile, but I do find the term “vulgar anti-imperialist” to be a strange one. I imagine it’s supposed to be related to “vulgar marxism” which I can’t personally define but have seen used by people I respect.

            But vulgar anti-imperialism? I think I’ve only seen it crop up after this invasion. The use of the term personally makes me think of the “we want X good thing, but now isn’t the time/this isn’t the way” chorus of voices that get amplified whenever powerful groups of people face the threat of not exerting near-total control over a situation

            • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]
              ·
              3 years ago

              I don’t want to come across as hostile

              no problem

              I do find the term “vulgar anti-imperialist” to be a strange one. I imagine it’s supposed to be related to “vulgar marxism” which I can’t personally define but have seen used by people I respect.

              It is the same vibe. Basically anti-imperialism that takes shortcuts in analysis - even if it arrives at the right conclusion. It is not something I have seen much of (aside from Twitter and Reddit, where every take is a market niche and you encounter every conceivable brainworm).

              The use of the term personally makes me think of the “we want X good thing, but now isn’t the time/this isn’t the way”

              I'm sure the liberals will start doing this right away once they learn a new vocabulary word, but there is a key difference. The liberals say shit like this to get everybody to shut their brains off, but actually, now is the time for everybody to turn their brains on and be very thoughtful about what's happening. There is a lot which is in flux at the moment. We're talking about the potential winding down of the petrodollar and unipolar US hegemony on one hand, the potential disposition of a significant counterhegemonic state on the other, or anything in-between depending on how events shake out. A lot of unprecedented events are taking place politically and economically, and now is no time for lazy thinking. That's all I'm trying to stress personally. All of the bourgeois think tanks are working overtime throughout this crisis. We cannot let our guard down.

              • Multihedra [he/him]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Yeah that’s fair. I still can’t say I love the term, but that’s all reasonable

        • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          The end goal for Putin at the very least transforming Ukraine into some sort of buffer again would be ideal. Whatever form it takes is flexible but the only real demand is that Ukraine remains neutral and no longer gets lethal aid from NATO.

          Denazification is a bonus, but the war would have happened even without the Nazis.

          For the left I think actual socialists/communists are realy salivating over the prospects of the end of the petrodollar for everyone but the west, along with an unexpected but welcomed multipolar world lead by China with India and Russia as problematic but nevertheless welcomed and useful allies or at least on common terms i.e turning hostile to the west.

          For this there is a lot that needs to happen still but concrete steps are being taken like sharing payment systems between the three of them, and obviously abandoning the USD as a reserve currency in favor of bilateral agreements with yuan/local currencies.

          Multiple economists/analysts already support this narrative, some would even say China/Russia were already kind of predicting all of this given their pre-war deals over the last few years. It is not useful to predict what is going to happen more than 6 months from now.

          In terms of domestic western politics personally I am looking forward to seeing the EU get fucked by all the popular revolts over living conditions within the next few months. Specialy France/Germany relations are beginning to show friction e.g some French business remained open in Russia.

    • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]M
      ·
      3 years ago

      I wonder if they were traumatized by being wrong about whether Putin was going to invade, the mainstream view, and so immediately adopted that mainstream view on whether Putin would win or lose to try and avoid being wrong again - to the point where, Parenti-style, anything Putin does is evidence of his lack of ability, stupidity, and poor strategy. It's such a strange, unnuanced view of the world compared to what I expect from communists and socialists.

      We live in the material, with great forces around us, not in a Great Man world. Maybe, to counter that view of the bumbling oaf Putler walking into bottomless fiery pits, you could argue that Putin is "history on horseback" ...bearback?... but the full ramifications of the new world that is finally being born can only be linked to him indirectly, if at all, and so we can only analyze whether this is the "right decision" - whatever that may mean - based on what is materially going to happen now - the food shortages, the de-dollarization, etc - and not the endless "brave" speeches of the leaders of NATO countries expressing that Putler has made a grave mistake, and he will pay in time, and once Ukraine magically wins this conflict, Zelensky will come in riding on a unicorn down a rainbow and show us how epically owned Putler is and how free and democratic Ukraine will be now. Who gives a shit about that idealist nonsense? Hopefully nobody here.

        • nohaybanda [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Yasha Levine wrote so much about “weaponized immigrant” and finally turning into one himself against his will.

          I'm out of the loop, what's happened there? I'm only peripherally aware of Yasha Levine

          • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            3 years ago

            Yasha has been on this beat for something like a decade now, talking about how the empire and its propaganda organs are all too happy to take in the discontented immigrants from enemy countries and use them to forward their own geopolitical interests. It is a fairly accurate critique. The irony is him essentially adopting the "Putin must go" line as a Russian immigrant. I think his contributions (like the book, Surveillance Valley) still far outweigh anything he's said in the past month though.

            The whole Exile milieu (that includes Ames and Dolan as well) has been kinda struggling with this one, though I still think we'd be worse off without their wider body of work.

            • swampfox [none/use name]
              ·
              3 years ago

              honestly with all the russophobia right now maybe they are realizing that it could be personally dangerous for them to be earnest. I don't even listen to whoever these people are but I think anyone left of Reagan right now should be pretty careful with their opsec and public statements in this political climate.

              also: never discount a person's incentive to grift

      • Mrtryfe [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        can your criticism here lead anywhere else than to accept the narrative that putin had no other choice than invading

        Again, historical precedent suggests Putin has been feeling the pressure for some time now. This has been well documented in terms of NATO's expansion eastwards, promises made and reneged on, and political scientists of various ideologies saying that was a bad idea. This idea that Putin suddenly decided this was a last minute thing he was going to do is actually more fucking bizarre than anything. Decades worth of historical reality wiped in the face of some irrational madman invading another country on a whim. Don't know what exactly it is that you want me to believe.

      • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]M
        ·
        3 years ago

        do they really want us to all hold hands and stand by the just war to finally settle the nato expansion once and for all

        Nobody here is "justifying" anything, justification is a process undertaken by an individual in response to their own actions and none of us are in control of the Russian invasion. We're analyzing cause and effect.

        Cause: US undermine the USSR and handpick Putin.
        Effect: Putin takes advantage and rebuilds Russia with a focus on national capitalism rather than allowing the exploitation of western companies to pillage the country.

        Cause: US handpicks Ukraine's government after a coup and makes it anti-Russia, and then Ukraine starts bombarding Donbass.
        Effect: Tensions raise dramatically.

        Cause: NATO, an anti-Russian alliance in all but name, begins encroaching closer and closer to Russia's territory.
        Effect: Putin invades Ukraine to stop that process, as well as to help Donbass.

        That's the basis of "fuck around and find out". Those who fuck around "deserve" it only insofar that they took an action, particularly one that negatively affects other people, that would have bad consequences for them. We aren't sitting around a table discussing "Hmm, how many Ukrainian civilians are worth a multipolar world?" because that's a nonsensical question.

        “liberals werent right in the prewar propaganda, the invasion was clearly a last minute decision”

        Literally who is saying this anymore? Maybe like, in the first week, but now it's pretty obvious that we were mistaken and this was premeditated months if not years in advance. I have great news for you, the contradiction has been resolved! No need to complain about this any longer!

        decent communists are actually allowing the narrative that “putin had no other choice” to fester

        It doesn't matter if you think Putin had no other choice or not, because none of us are Putin. Putin made a choice in his circumstances that none of us are in or have been or will be in. This is just idealist nonsense. Cause and effect. Actions have consequences. NATO gets closer, Putin feels threatened. Ukraine goes pro-US, Putin feels threatened. Understanding - even sympathizing - as to why somebody does something isn't giving them support for that action.

        charading reductive hypermechanical frames about nihilism instead of discussing this shit is doing great work. the movement is doing great

        :jesse-wtf:

        Please, report back when your particular ideology achieves anything at all so you can show us how it's done! I will make sure to report to the global socialist hivemind that advises what every socialist should be doing regardless of their location, history, race, gender, and sexuality and let them know that we should be following your course instead of the "simp for Putin for no reason" protocol we currently have in place! After all, we are all free to follow our own destinies free from the mental and physical prison of our material interests and circumstances!

              • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]M
                ·
                3 years ago

                I declare you the official winner of this debate. Congratulations! Another tally on the (I'm sure) long list of people you've convinced that you're right and they're wrong through logical arguments! As you've so thoroughly disproven all my arguments, there's no longer any need to reply to me!

                  • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]M
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    Fine, I'll re-engage. What part of Putin's strategy is very stupid? All I've seen are people describing what's going on and then saying "and obviously this is bad and stupid" as if we should automatically agree that that is the case. I accept that some errors have been made - such as not destroying key features and facilities until only recently - but what's wrong in a more macro sense? Or is it so many micro errors that it all contributes to the macro? Or are you not talking about the invasion itself but everything else going on around it?

                      • SeventyTwoTrillion [he/him]M
                        ·
                        3 years ago

                        There's only 3 more countries on Russia's border (i.e. that Russia could invade without it causing WW3) that haven't joined NATO that are being proposed to. Ukraine, Finland, and Georgia. One of those countries Putin is invading, Georgia is a strongly aspirant country to join NATO but is currently engaged in territorial disputes and is far from Moscow, which really only leaves Finland, and while the majority of Finnish people support joining it, I get the impression from what I've read that the government is quite wary of it.

      • Mrtryfe [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Who the fuck is Roderic Day? I'm basing this off of Western neo-realist ghouls themselves saying Russia was going to respond at some point to NATO expansionism and Ukraine's forays into the Donbass region. This is fucking stuff Mark Ames had been regularly pointing out for years, and even mentioned countless times that Putin would respond, only to start flip flopping during the lead-up to when Putin actually did respond.

        ill have fun watching yall resolve the contradiciton bw “focusing putin is a red flag, this is a national war” and “liberals werent right in the prewar propaganda, the invasion was clearly a last minute decision”

        Imagine trying to resolve non-sequiturs, when there's three decades worth of historical reality to contend with. But what is your critique of all this, idealist Hexbear poster?

          • swampfox [none/use name]
            ·
            3 years ago

            this comment could be a museum piece for what happens when you don't interpret things with a materialist lens;

            1. Drawing abstract, unhinged conclusions rooted in ideas (obviously)
            2. Developing an antipathy for materialism (just an aside)
            3. Finding it improbable when two materialists draw the same conclusion when that's actually highly probable (the main thrust of this comment)
                  • swampfox [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    I speak to a few direct points that are closest to our thread but if you want me to comment on something else in particular just let me know what exactly to talk about.

                    Regarding, Mark Ames' take on Russia's invasion - I don't follow this guy but it sounds like (I have to hear about him second-hand non-stop) before the war he represented Russia's side of the story and now he's decided to change camps. I take it as given that no one can really pretend to know what Russia is actually hoping to gain in this war just as we can't really know what the US was up to in Ukraine, specifically - at least not yet, credible testimony on those may emerge over time but for now all we can do is look at what facts we have and speculate. I think Mark Ames is reading the room and seeing how anyone in the West who is even giving a Russia a luke-warm defense is getting literally scrubbed from the internet. That is not good for him as a content producer and that is going to influence him more than he'll admit - so walking back his prior rationalizations so that he can continue to operate in a russophobic political climate makes the most sense when accounting for his material conditions. Beyond that, while the media would gladly have everyone believe that Russia's war isn't going well, I'd say that evidence points to the contrary - they are clearly winning. Calling the war "stupid" seems myopic considering that the groundwork for this war was laid 8 years ago - it had to pop off at some point and for someone to claim they know better than Russian intelligence about when the best time for them to handle this was is arrogant at best.

                    Regarding the thing about two people drawing the same conclusion and materialism - Marxism is (or aspires to be depending on who you ask) a science - a method with which the world can be analyzed and conclusions can be drawn so that actions that benefit humanity can be taken. But, for what we're discussing we just need the first bit. For people who are trying to get at the concrete truth of a matter (why did Russia invade / why was NATO training/advising Ukraine, etc) they will apply their framework of perception to the information at hand and after aggregating information they will conclude with whatever is most plausible. This isn't to say that the materialist approach is the only method, but when two people are using the same method and given the same limited set of data - it comes as no surprise when they reach similar conclusions. Sure people have their blindspots but there will still be common denominators. People who interpret the world in the same way will even likely have the same political reflexes/instincts within arguments. Echo-chambers would constitute for exactness in phrasing/evidence cited but a lot of what is being discussed has to sadly be presupposed when so much of the information has been intentionally obfuscated.