I fully understand that AOC is not perfect but she's doing a hell of a lot more than the podcast grifters are.
In the Chapo feed there was a short thing from Amber about a campaign to get unions to support M4A. That seems far more important to building pressure for M4A than ForceTheVote because union endorsements are valuable for all Dems. Presidents, in Congress, at the State Level, etc
I agree with all of this. What I don't understand is how people think the problem is that there isn't enough pressure on the Squad. The pressure needs to be put on Pelosi, Schumer, and the rest of the neoliberal ghouls who are the largest obstacle to M4A passing in the foreseeable future.
I am not criticizing the #ForceTheVote people for pressuring elected officials. I am criticizing them because they viciously attack AOC and the Squad when that pressure needs to be placed on the Dem establishment. When Jimmy Dore and co actively talk about how AOC needs to be primaried and how she's worse than Pelosi (both are things Dore has said in the last two days), we need to realize that he's just punching left for attention. If all of the energy put into the Force The Vote grift was put into organized sit-ins in Pelosi's office, it would be a lot more helpful to our struggle. It probably wouldn't get Dore the shock views on his show, however.
When Jimmy Dore and co actively talk about how AOC needs to be primaried and how she’s worse than Pelosi (both are things Dore has said in the last two days)
God what an annoying idiot
The fact that people think this is a win in anyway is some amazing :LIB: bs.
The dems have an incredibly narrow majority in the house and are hanging on by a thread, and people think a minor rule change is a win.
Anyway keep protecting your queen, she's clearly lost all interest in your problems.
Hey guys we got them to demote the thing they brought back in 2018!!!🎉🎉🎉
"fuck you = violence". If you really think these are the people who are going to create real change then you're dreaming.
Dore has an audience that can target harassment at people, and spreads active misinformation so not only is it targeted harassment, it's over shit that isn't even true.
https://twitter.com/themattdimitri/status/1339478371214917632
Focusing on the language of a tweet over a change in how the government operates is :LIB: shit
How reversible is this change? How long-lasting?... Maybe it matters and this is a victory - but this doesn't seem like a public defeat of the establishment. It seems like a bone the establishment threw her behind the scenes and may rescind at any moment. The public isn't gonna engage with this incremental nothing. If it's a step toward something good - cool, but I won't believe it until the next step is taken.
Also - she's a politician. She shouldn't get language wrong. Good word choice is her business.
I think a reasonable comparison is the DNC rules changes (regarding superdelegates) Bernie pushed through in 2016. It wasn't the whole ballgame, but it did keep him from getting stopped before he got started in 2020.
she’s a politician. She shouldn’t get language wrong. Good word choice is her business.
I agree, and I agree the whole "this is violence" bit is worthy of criticism. The issue is dunking on that while writing off the good thing she did, that she's announcing in the same set of tweets. Critical support isn't just criticism.
The issue is dunking on that while writing off the good thing she did, that she’s announcing in the same set of tweets.
That's a fair retort. But I'd generally support whatever she did (even if the GREAT VICTORY! here seems like weak tea). What I don't like is that she hits the left and then OP also starts a fight for no reason. The reason I want her to be pushed is to help her be the best version of herself. Not because I wish her any ill.
Saying "it's pretty obnoxious to be getting 'fuck you and the horse you rode in on' tweets when we're supposed to be on the same team" isn't punching left. If someone tells you to go fuck yourself, and you reply to that, you're not the one initiating that exchange.
Fair. But she's a member of Congress. She doesn't have to respond to shit talk. Rise above it and no one will notice it.
Nancy brought back these roles in 2018.the gop got rid of them from 2011 to 2018.
So awesome that we got the rules demoted!!!
fuck off. AOC is one of four people in Congress who are loyal to the working class.
I like her - but that's BS. Why is she promoting anti-China sanctions/Tibet interventionism? Are there no working class people in China? How does that benefit the American working class?
She's not a labor leader ala Lula. She's a cool progressive. But her affinity for the working class is not written in stone.
this force the vote on m4a changes nothing for me in terms of my perception of her. yea nothings written in stone, but maybe let's not turn on the few allies we might have.
no one who enters Congress is loyal to the working class. some of them are more willing to toss crumbs our way but they are united in their disdain for labor. cori bush could be an exception, pretty excited to see where she goes
i cannot believe you libs are actually posting and arguing and upvoting and downvoting this
Better than the "AOC is a sjw cuck for saying words can be violence" thread
This is the dorkiest, cringiest post about AOC I've seen yet and she's my fucking congresswoman. I get nothing but bad posts about AOC. Just delete plz
This is mostly symbolic.
The good news is that there's one less hurdle facing Progressives trying to pass a GND or M4A during this congressional session. The bad news is that those agendas still have no chance of passing, because the Congressional/Presidential Democratic leadership are actively hostile to that possibility, and this "concession" does nothing to mandate they change that.
At least forcing the vote would've had a chance of exposing that hostility to a greater degree. It still would've been a mostly pointless gesture from a Congressional faction with near-zero institutional power, but so is this.
Maybe if the Congressional Progressives Caucus votes for more funding to regime change efforts in China, they'll finally earn the proper respect of Pelosi and Schumer.
41 democrats sided with Mitch McConnell versus Bernie Sanders but tell me more about working with the Democrats will bring about change.
I haven't told you anything about that so far, so I don't get why you would expect me to tell you more about that.
Folks get mad that libs are doing lib shit but then won't actually go do out and do anything better.
Like yes, this is some serious lib shit, and it's STILL more than most of Cha Cha is doing. So instead of getting mad and laughing at the lib, maybe go out and do better.
And lib shit -- while it has major limitations -- can do real things that would be an enormous improvement for millions. Criticizing it is fine, dismissing it entirely is a mistake.
The ACA was lib shit, and didn't go anywhere near far enough, but a bunch of people can get healthcare now who couldn't get it before. Want to know why people keep going back to Democrats despite all the party's failings? Because Democrats can point that stuff like that, and some mediocre improvements are worth years of promises. It's the same thing with M4A. It's not socialism, but if you play electoral politics well enough to make it happen you're going to have a lot more people willing to support you.
Still don't know why the goal isn't to get Pelosi out for someone friendlier to progressives but I'm just one of the violents she mentioned so don't worry about me
I mean it is, AOC and the squad have said as much. I think the prevailing idea right now is that if the Squad forced Pelosi out, she'd get replaced by someone worse (and thirty years younger...) becasue there are still more shitheels than comrades in the House Dem delegation. Whether you agree with her is shrug, but the progressives seem to believe they don't have the votes to get someone better than Pelosi right now.
I just don't understand why progressives aim so low. This seems like a pretty good win (I don't understand how it works but not a bad win) but it seems kinda....not enough? Considering how much power house progressives have now?
Idk I wish they'd get something more out of their speaker vote.
Considering how much power house progressives have now?
They don't have that much power, though. They can't get M4A passed, they can't get the Green New Deal passed, they can't get stimulus checks passed, they can't get student debt forgiveness passed, they can't shut down military bases, etc., etc., etc.
There are 8 progressives in the House now. That's enough to pressure the remaining ~200 Democrats in a few preliminary areas, but it's not enough to boss those ~200 Democrats around.
Yeah I know.
But they don't really fight for anything either. Like AOC lost a committee seat.
The main reason I "support" this force the vote thing isn't for a symbolic vote on M4A or to see who actually supports it (we already know). It's really just because I want to see them fight the establishment. Otherwise I really don't see how they differ from Pelosi.
Idk I feel like them fighting won't hurt them any and might actually make people like them more and get more of them elected. Worked for the Tea Party. And they got Boehner to retire.
Just want to see more fight I guess.
Honestly this is the only #ForceTheVote argument I have a lot of respect for. I think there are some key things that AOC does that distinguish her from Pelosi - most notably she literally does boots-on-the-ground mutual aid in her district while Pelosi talks about ice cream in her $20k fridge. She's called on Pelosi and Schumer to both retire (and IIRC Pelosi promised to retire by 2022, although that was from before AOC took office). Regardless, there is a need for shock-and-awe style tactics in addition to the wonkery that the left accomplished here, even if I firmly believe what the Squad did here is much more significant than ForceTheVote . I hope to see the Squad and the left do more things like sit-ins and organized protests against corporate Dems, because we need that kind of fight in them.
I think a lot of people make the Tea Party comparison without remembering that the Tea Party started with at least twice the number of Congressional reps as the Squad had plus the Tea Party had access to unlimited Koch Brothers money plus friendly Fox News hosts. The left has neither money pools nor friends in the mainstream media; what we're trying to accomplish is a thousand times more difficult than what the Tea Party did.
The main reason I “support” this force the vote thing isn’t for a symbolic vote on M4A or to see who actually supports it (we already know). It’s really just because I want to see them fight the establishment. Otherwise I really don’t see how they differ from Pelosi.
Honestly this is the only #ForceTheVote argument I have a lot of respect for.
If you talk to anyone Force the Vote organizing spaces, they will tell you this is the goal. I feel like I'm going insane. You just live for Twitter drama.
It’s really just because I want to see them fight the establishment.
I don't see how this is anything besides demanding performative politics. You know it won't accomplish anything. You know they don't even have the power to accomplish what you're asking. But you want them to put on a show anyways?
Yeah I guess. Probably just looking for something to feel hopeful for in this hellword.
I just don't think they'll fight when it actually matters. Like when the next CARES comes about are they just gonna roll over when they could hold it up? Idk. Kinda feel like they will.
But they don’t really fight for anything either. Like AOC lost a committee seat.
And one reason she lost that committee seat was Henry Cuellar opposing her, that guy was hit with a primary challenger who AOC endorsed who got 48% of the vote. She could possible agree to not give out endorsements to primary challengers in exchange for a seat
They don't have government power, but they have people power - and not just passive support, activists and demonstrators. Start a public fight - attract media attention, point out poll results and rallies in support. Call out Breonna Taylor's killers or Jeffrey Epstein or just the fact that the economy is in the toilet. The public is not with the establishment - the public's mad.
Start a public fight - attract media attention, point out poll results and rallies in support. Call out Breonna Taylor’s killers or Jeffrey Epstein or just the fact that the economy is in the toilet.
I'm all for this, because this is stuff they can actually do. The issue I have is when people start slamming them for stuff they that's not actually within their power.
Perfectly fair. Don't "slam" them - but do tell them that you want them to do more. That helps them make their case.
she’d get replaced by someone worse (and thirty years younger…)
Or the rest of the Democrats would keep pushing Pelosi, and with no majority there would be no Speaker, and my understanding is that would grind Congress to a halt. At that point all public anger about congressional inaction would be laid at the feet of progressives.
Wrong
It goes till they get a speaker. I think in the 20s they had a house speaker ship take 40+ ballots. Eventually some dem will become speaker and any dem is better than Pelosi.
They almost lost the house by the gop just running anti Pelosi ads. She is a huge negative.
any dem is better than Pelosi.
plenty are more conservative
ANY DEM IS Better. From a pure strategical standpoint any dem is better than Nancy. The country hates her more than trump.
Don't you think the propaganda machine will make your country hate the next speaker almost as much as Pelosi?
I think in the 20s they had a house speaker ship take 40+ ballots.
Precedent from the 1920s is worth very little. I see no reason why they wouldn't just nominate Pelosi a few times, get no Speaker, and then sit on their hands and grandstand about how progressives are shutting down the government during a pandemic. Certainly no one is forcing them to keep voting at gunpoint.
any dem is better than Pelosi
As the comment above me pointed out, a Speaker who acts as Pelosi does but is 30 years younger and is less of a lightning rod would be worse.
First off. The next speaker will not stay as long as Pelosi. The party is in a death spiral mostly due to her poor leadership.
2nd. That's the rules on how the house operates. The speaker doesn't even have to be a member of the house. But they must have a speaker to operate and they will be under immense donor pressure to figure it out.
That’s the rules on how the house operates
And how much do the rules matter?
But they must have a speaker to operate and they will be under immense donor pressure to figure it out.
For all we know donors would be happy with a government shutdown that they could use to kneecap progressives.
I mean I'm assuming we still have a functioning government that has been operating the same as it has when Republicans where picking speaker. So I think the rules matter as the empire still stands.
Speaker ship changes. Republicans have had squabbles over it.
"Rules matter" is a scorching hot take in 2021. They don't even have to break any rules in the scenario I outlined -- they can just do a few failed votes and then go to the media about it instead of locking themselves in a room and doing it all over again.
Because no one is running against Pelosi currently. I assume that's because 2022 is her last term as speaker and there will be a large competition then
Didn't she say last term was her last term as Speaker? And why isn't anyone running? Pretty spineless of the Justice/progressive wing to not even do a nominal challenge.
In 2018 she agreed to end her time as Speaker in 2022
Who dares downbear me, I am correct
That's not a good thing though and certainly not an excuse for no one to challenge her. The Dems are barely holding onto a majority in the House and Pelosi has been a horrible leader. They need change now, but they're just going to wait for her to leave on her own in another year? Sure as hell hope the Dems appreciate that slim lead in the House because I'm sure its not going to survive the 2022 midterms.
That’s not a good thing though and certainly not an excuse for no one to challenge her
I didn't say it was either. I am just assuming that they are not challenging her because they know an opening is coming next time.
Honestly it's pretty telling how dismissive this site is to the fact that AOC has received consistant harrasment from the likes of Jimmy Dore who flat-out lied and attempted to take credit for AOC being elected in the first place! Jimmy Dore deliberately misled his audience by attempting to pin AOC as some sort of traitor over a difference in strategic planning, and the fact that this site has dismissed AOC's concern out-right (even though I do agree that the way she phrased it was very Metropolitan and out of touch) neglects that at the end of the day she is still a human being; redirect your hostility and vitriol towards something more productive than just shitposting on twitter and trying to dunk on AOC to seem cool.
A politician got yelled at by a talk-radio show host.
I really could not care less.
The entire Chapo coverage of the Bernie campaign was bullying Democratic candidates.
There's a large difference between harrasing, imo when its not comradely critiquing someone but vindicatively trying to tear them down (through a targeted campaign by Dore to opportunistically try and take credit for, and thus discredit, the work of many organizers who collaborated to help AOC win her seat) who wants the same end-goal as you (M4A) but differ on specic tacitics, and the Chapo's roasting of someone like Joe Biden who has never been in allignment with AOC for the same end-goal of M4A. This whole situation has not really made any side look particular well, but the concession made by the Dems recently to forego the PayGo imo has made it more opportunte time to advocate for the Force the Vote and the whole Dore controversy has distracted from this end.
who wants the same end-goal as you (M4A) but differ on specic tacitics
This is literally the same line Warrenites used when she got called out in the primary.
vindicatively trying to tear them down (through a targeted campaign)
By demanding they withhold their vote for Pelosi? It is a targeted campaign to get them to do something.
take credit for, and thus discredit, the work of many organizers who collaborated to help AOC win her seat
Organizers help elect unaccountable politicians all the time. There are people who do not trust AOC.
By demanding they withhold their vote for Pelosi? It is a targeted campaign to get them to do something.
I agree that this is the case for many of the advocates for the move, like BJG, but Dore has made it a point that the lack of attention that the Squad gave to his show was a point of contention which is obviously distracting from the larger goal since M4A is not dependent on representatives attending a podcast lmao. And sure I get your point about the Warren comparison, but even if the floor vote went through it wouldve been politically killed by the mandatory stipulations of the PayGo, now that that problem has been dealt with I think it is the right time to Force the Vote (or maybe after Georgia elections to ensure that all political blowback falls on the Dems).
Part of the movement is to build a left media system. So iono. The idea that ro kanna will go to his show multiple times and get called out, yet the squad won't is a bit interesting. The guy has a big platform and is now a bigger player in the movement. He talks like most of my blue collar family.
His making it a point that they are disrespecting his viewers and his clout.
Some stupid austerity provision Pelosi loves. The House can’t pass a bill with new spending unless you pay for it immediately. It exists entirely because Pelosi likes it; the progressives finally won repealing it.
